338 Lapua

[AK-49]

If you are ever in the market for a 338 Lapua... then give Chris a call and ask him why he prefers the stiller 338 action for this application. He is an expert and is well known and well respected for his tactical rifles.

http://www.longshotriflesllc.com/

http://www.viperactions.com/actions/use_tactical.htm

[Altjaeger]

It is nice that he recognizes that that other SPF actions may be suitable, especially since the cartridge was developed and was long built on other actions. I notice he also shows the good sense not to make any special claims about it strength. He speaks of "refinements" which may or may not be in the eye of the beholder.

[AK-49]

It is nice that he recognizes that that other SPF actions may be suitable, especially since the cartridge was developed and was long built on other actions. I notice he also shows the good sense not to make any special claims about it strength. He speaks of "refinements" which may or may not be in the eye of the beholder.

If you really want to know Chris's opinon on savage then give him a phone call... he makes some comments on savage at the following link, the thread is two pages long: http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f26/savage-338-lapua-9096/

the stiller action is the way to go... not sure if neiska bay actions are still in business

[Altjaeger]

If you really want to know Chris's opinon on savage then give him a phone call... he makes some comments on savage at the following link, the thread is two pages long: http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f26/savage-338-lapua-9096/

the stiller action is the way to go... not sure if neiska bay actions are still in business

I don't think that anyone ever mentioned Savage in this thread, but you have now. Besides Chris is simply one man who has an opinion that is likely biased by the fact he is marketing that action. Now Lazzeroni has proprietary cartridges that seem every bit as intense in pressure as the Lapua, if not more so since theirs is even higher velocity . The Lazzeroni operates in the 55,000-56,000 C.U.P. range. They thought enough of Savage to contract a special run of Savages in their cartridges.

The .338 Lapua was introduced in 1986 annd somehow limped along just fine without this action for over 20years.

[DancesWithKnives]

I think Dakota bought the company that makes the Nesika Bay actions and they are available through Dakota (at least they were a year and a half ago, when I last called).

DWK

[Sabre]

I don't think that anyone ever mentioned Savage in this thread, but you have now. Besides Chris is simply one man who has an opinion that is likely biased by the fact he is marketing that action. Now Lazzeroni has proprietary cartridges that seem every bit as intense in pressure as the Lapua, if not more so since theirs is even higher velocity . The Lazzeroni operates in the 55,000-56,000 C.U.P. range. They thought enough of Savage to contract a special run of Savages in their cartridges.

The .338 Lapua was introduced in 1986 annd somehow limped along just fine without this action for over 20years.

Never heard of this Chris Mathews feller but the fact that he thinks there's nothing mechanically wrong with the Remington 700 trigger mechanism {he needs to have a long talk with Jack Belk about that} and that the machined bar stock Savage receiver is "cast" shows he doesn't know as much about rifles/actions as he thinks he does. I think his biggest objection to converting one to .338 Lapua is that the magzine components to do so are commercially unavailable.

[Altjaeger]

Sabre, I certainly don't claim the Viper is a bad action. But I did with some digging find that the C.I.P. (European equivalent of our NAAMI setting pressures for 14 countries) has set the limit for the .338 Lapua Magnum at 56,000 C.U.P.. That is the same as the Lazzeroni round operates so the Savage action would be perfectly suitable. The way to promote a worthy product up is not to bad mouth another as weak and dangerous likely to blow when it is an obvious untruth, then sticking to that in the face of all evidence.

[AK-49]

Sabre, I certainly don't claim the Viper is a bad action. But I did with some digging find that the C.I.P. (European equivalent of our NAAMI setting pressures for 14 countries) has set the limit for the .338 Lapua Magnum at 56,000 C.U.P.. That is the same as the Lazzeroni round operates so the Savage action would be perfectly suitable. The way to promote a worthy product up is not to bad mouth another as weak and dangerous likely to blow when it is an obvious untruth, then sticking to that in the face of all evidence.

http://www.lazzeroni.com/

I can assure you that savage isn't making actions for lazzeroni... give them a call and get the facts

[Sabre]

http://www.lazzeroni.com/

I can assure you that savage isn't making actions for lazzeroni... give them a call and get the facts

Lazzeroni did commision Savage to build a batch of rifles chambered for his cartridges a few years ago. Savage actions have been pressure tested against all of the major factory bolts and found to be as strong or stronger than any, including remington, ruger, winchester and weatherby. I have the results in an article somewhere but can't locate it presently. Suffice to say it takes in the neighborhood of 90,000 psi to blow a Savage action and that is FAR ABOVE the pressure produced by any metallic sporting cartridge ever made.

[AK-49]

Lazzeroni did commision Savage to build a batch of rifles chambered for his cartridges a few years ago. Savage actions have been pressure tested against all of the major factory bolts and found to be as strong or stronger than any, including remington, ruger, winchester and weatherby. I have the results in an article somewhere but can't locate it presently. Suffice to say it takes in the neighborhood of 90,000 psi to blow a Savage action and that is FAR ABOVE the pressure produced by any metallic sporting cartridge ever made.

Lots of cartridges approach 60,000 psi such as the common 223 rem at 55,000 psi.. You won't find a lazzeroni cartridge that even closely approaches the over all energy of a 338 Lapua... about 5000 ft-lbs at the muzzle, when you are pushing a 300 gr bullet at 2750 fps. Think about the bolt face area. From what I know there are no sammi specs for the 338 lapua but I think it generates about 68,000 psi max of chamber pressure. I don't think that you can safely convert a savage action to handle the fierce bolt thrust generated by a 338 lapua. If it were me I'd get one built on an action designed to handle that sort of force.

[Sabre]

Lots of cartridges approach 60,000 psi such as the common 223 rem at 55,000 psi.. You won't find a lazzeroni cartridge that even closely approaches the over all energy of a 338 Lapua... about 5000 ft-lbs at the muzzle, when you are pushing a 300 gr bullet at 2750 fps. Think about the bolt face area. From what I know there are no sammi specs for the 338 lapua but I think it generates about 68,000 psi max of chamber pressure. I don't think that you can safely convert a savage action to handle the fierce bolt thrust generated by a 338 lapua. If it were me I'd get one built on an action designed to handle that sort of force.

Well, for one thing buckwheat I don't know why the hell anybody'd want a 338 Lapua to hunt with in the first place. Learn to be a craftsman {marksman} and you won't need such an oversized hammer. And for another thing,the Savage action is as strong as any commercial action on the market.you want to be an ignorant elitist snob go ahead. You ain't bullshittin' me on anything to do with guns or huntin though cuz I done forgot more than you'll ever know.

[AK-49]

Lazzeroni did commision Savage to build a batch of rifles chambered for his cartridges a few years ago. Savage actions have been pressure tested against all of the major factory bolts and found to be as strong or stronger than any, including remington, ruger, winchester and weatherby. I have the results in an article somewhere but can't locate it presently. Suffice to say it takes in the neighborhood of 90,000 psi to blow a Savage action and that is FAR ABOVE the pressure produced by any metallic sporting cartridge ever made.


Well, for one thing buckwheat I don't know why the hell anybody'd want a 338 Lapua to hunt with in the first place. Learn to be a craftsman {marksman} and you won't need such an oversized hammer. And for another thing,the Savage action is as strong as any commercial action on the market.you want to be an ignorant elitist snob go ahead. You ain't bullshittin' me on anything to do with guns or huntin though cuz I done forgot more than you'll ever know.

Geeze, the 338 Lupua is for use in a tactical rifle for the most part. Personally I have no need for one... How did you obtain your wealth of knowledge?

[Sabre]

Geeze, the 338 Lupua is for use in a tactical rifle for the most part. Personally I have no need for one... How did you obtain your wealth of knowledge?

Well, for one thing I earned my living as a full time gunsmith for several years and for another I was practically born with a rifle in one hand and a dead critter in the other. Do you need to know more ?

[DancesWithKnives]

Just for clarification, the Lazzeroni Titan is rated at a muzzle energy of 5510 ft lbs and the Meteor is supposed to yield 6965 ft lbs.

DWK

[AK-49]

Well, for one thing I earned my living as a full time gunsmith for several years and for another I was practically born with a rifle in one hand and a dead critter in the other. Do you need to know more ?

Okay I will keep on the subject:

a) what do you think is the best action for the 338 lapua mag

b) what are the requirements for an action that will be expected to handled cartridges that can generate up to 5000 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle

[Altjaeger]

http://www.lazzeroni.com/

I can assure you that savage isn't making actions for lazzeroni... give them a call and get the facts

I suggest you get the facts before you make stupid challenges to go wih the foolish claims you make.:D

I guess it was about 15 years ago Lazzeroni had Savage make a limited run in their cartridges which Lazeronni as I recall sold off at about $1,200 a copy. If yu would care to take a stroll over to Gunbroker.com you will find that Item # 131712791 is a Savage chambered in the Lazzeroni 7.82 Patriot listed at $1,399.99 as the opening bid to start. If that is not enough then take a look at item #131616131 again a Savage in the 7.82 Patriot at $1,999,99 to open. Yep I appreciate your grasp of "Facts".:eek:

If you have not figured out when you and I get started I have already researched my facts before I ever post. I got this together this afternoon because I expected you to issue a silly challenge. You might do well to do the same instead of flying by the seat of your pants whirling in circles as fast as you can trying to kiss your elbow while screaming, , "IsToo! Is Too! Is TOO!!!:D

[AK-49]

Just for clarification, the Lazzeroni Titan is rated at a muzzle energy of 5510 ft lbs and the Meteor is supposed to yield 6965 ft lbs.

DWK

Holy! Who builds their actions?

http://www.lazzeroni.com/ct_reload_meteor.htm

[AK-49]

I suggest you get the facts before you make stupid challenges to go wih the foolish claims you make.:D

I guess it was about 15 years ago Lazzeroni had Savage make a limited run in their cartridges which Lazeronni as I recall sold off at about $1,200 a copy. If yu would care to take a stroll over to Gunbroker.com you will find that Item # 131712791 is a Savage chambered in the Lazzeroni 7.82 Patriot listed at $1,399.99 as the opening bid to start. If that is not enough then take a look at item #131616131 again a Savage in the 7.82 Patriot at $1,999,99 to open. Yep I appreciate your grasp of "Facts".:eek:

If you have not figured out when you and I get started I have already researched my facts before I ever post. I got this together this afternoon because I expected you to issue a silly challenge. You might do well to do the same instead of flying by the seat of yur pants whirling in circles as fast as you can trying to kiss your elbow while screaming, , "IsToo! Is Too! Is TOO!!!:D

who builds the lazaroni actions now?

[Altjaeger]

Lots of cartridges approach 60,000 psi such as the common 223 rem at 55,000 psi.. You won't find a lazzeroni cartridge that even closely approaches the over all energy of a 338 Lapua... about 5000 ft-lbs at the muzzle, when you are pushing a 300 gr bullet at 2750 fps. Think about the bolt face area. From what I know there are no sammi specs for the 338 lapua but I think it generates about 68,000 psi max of chamber pressure. I don't think that you can safely convert a savage action to handle the fierce bolt thrust generated by a 338 lapua. If it were me I'd get one built on an action designed to handle that sort of force.


Facts Dear AK, Facts. Keep trying. even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and again.

First the Savage question has long been answered. They can handle ,338 lapua pressures easily and have done so. Lazzeroni even sold them. GunBroker.com even has two specimen up for auction.,

I have no idea where you are coming up with the crazy pressure figures for the Lapua, but I have already told you the C.I.P. has set the max at 56,000 C.U.P. or the same range as the Lazerroni which the company says is loaded at 55.000-56.000 C.U.P. Those are the figures and if you doubt them go look them up.

But then I save the best for last. Your absurd and absolutely incorrect claim that, "You will not find..." a Lazzeroni cartridge that approaches the ,338 Lapua magnum in energy. Well here they are. According to Lapua, Chuck Hawks and Fred Barnes in , "Cartridges of the World" the .338 Lapua shooting a 250 grain bullet generates 3,000 fps velocity and 5,000 ft lbs energy. Now Lazzeroni says their 8.85 mm (.338) Titan shooting a 250 grain bullet achieves 3,150 fps velocity and 5,150 fps and 5,510 ft lbs energy. Now that is 150 fps faster than the Lapua round and 510 more ft lbs for the Lazzeroni round.

But wait a minute it just maybe they overstate the capability of their proprietary round. Chuch Hawkes says the Lazzeroni shooting the 250 bullet only achieves 3,100 fps and about 5,330 ftlbs of energy. Oops, but then again that is still 100 fps faster and 330 ft lbs more energy than the Lapua.

Sorry guy but not a single one of your "facts" check out. But keep rooting, you will find one some day. Oh, and by the way feel free to challenge me to get my facts straight again sometime.:D

[Altjaeger]

who builds the lazaroni actions now?

Does not matter for it has nothing to do with your false claim or the topic we are discussing.. Changing the topic wil not make your claims true. You have repeaedly stated Savage cannot stand up to the high intensity rounds. That was the topic.

[AK-49]

Does not matter for it has nothing to do with your false claim or the topic we are discussing.. Changing the topic wil not make your claims true. You have repeaedly stated Savage cannot stand up to the high intensity rounds. That was the topic.

from my research here is what I've learned so far... its called the savage model 16-LZ.. http://www.rifleshootermag.com/featured_rifles/lazzeroni_savage/

savage made that action specifically for Lazzeroni, sako also made an action specifically for Lazzeroni to handle their cartridges. Apparently approx 6 yrs or so ago savage and sako both under went ownership changes and no longer would produce actions for Lazzeroni.

Lazzeroni actions are made by the same company that makes mcmillan actions
http://www.mcmfamily.com/

So my point is not all savage actions are created the same... Don't try to build a rifle on a receiver that isn't designed to handle the force it is entrusted to. I stand corrected on the lazzeroni cartridges.. I'd love to see you shoot one of those lazzeroni meterors.. I will gladly buy five rounds for you to shoot... LOL

[Sabre]

from my research here is what I've learned so far... its called the savage model 16-LZ.. http://www.rifleshootermag.com/featured_rifles/lazzeroni_savage/

savage made that action specifically for Lazzeroni, sako also made an action specifically for Lazzeroni to handle their cartridges. Apparently approx 6 yrs or so ago savage and sako both under went ownership changes and no longer would produce actions for Lazzeroni.

Lazzeroni actions are made by the same company that makes mcmillan actions
http://www.mcmfamily.com/

So my point is not all savage actions are created the same... Don't try to build a rifle on a receiver that isn't designed to handle the force it is entrusted to. I stand corrected on the lazzeroni cartridges.. I'd love to see you shoot one of those lazzeroni meterors.. I will gladly buy five rounds for you to shoot... LOL
Again you are just plain wrong in your way of thinking on this subject. Doesn't matter whether a rifle is chambered for one of the Lazzeroni cartridges or one of Weatherby's or Winchester's. The weak link in the chain is always gonna be the brass cartridge case so max allowable pressure is alway's going to be kept well below the failure point of the brass by SAMMI. Any and ALL centerfire bolt actions on the market today are well capable of containing pressures well beyond the point where cartridge brass will begin to flow {around 70,000 psi}. I have no idea why you would think the Savage action is weaker than any other on the market today but I'd really like to hear it.

[Altjaeger]

from my research here is what I've learned so far... its called the savage model 16-LZ.. http://www.rifleshootermag.com/featured_rifles/lazzeroni_savage/

savage made that action specifically for Lazzeroni, sako also made an action specifically for Lazzeroni to handle their cartridges. Apparently approx 6 yrs or so ago savage and sako both under went ownership changes and no longer would produce actions for Lazzeroni.

Lazzeroni actions are made by the same company that makes mcmillan actions
http://www.mcmfamily.com/

So my point is not all savage actions are created the same... Don't try to build a rifle on a receiver that isn't designed to handle the force it is entrusted to. I stand corrected on the lazzeroni cartridges.. I'd love to see you shoot one of those lazzeroni meterors.. I will gladly buy five rounds for you to shoot... LOL

ROFL. Your starting to remind me of the Christmas goose.

Savage, Winchester, Ithaca, Lazzeroni, Kimber, SAKO, FN, Remington, Smith and Wesson and McMillan all have gone through ownership changes in the last 25 years and driven right on manufacturing the same forearms.

Show me where the actions changed designs with owners. Not your guess, wishes to be true, fanciful proclamations. But show me concretely with documentation that the action was redesigned and weakened. I also challenge you to show me where the actions used on the Lazerroni rounds were major redesigns for the purpose. The rifles were not a partnership thing, but specifically a special order by Lazzeroni. The modifications were to the bolt head, not the bolt which is where strength is determined. In fact it was their standard M16-FCSS rifle after replacing that bolthead with their standard M116 Safari Express bolt head that converts it to a contolled feed according to the article you provided. In other words all standard Savage parts and action. Something you knew or should have known when you posted this.

No matter how you wish to twist and turn all your fanciful allegations about Savage actions taking a few facts and twisting them into false allegations will not change that.

As far as firing Lazzeroni ammo on a Savage action I have no desire to fire Lazzeroni, Weatherby or the the Lapua cartridges as I am not a fan of recoil.

That said we have at least three members from Texas. If you wish to pay for such a rifle to be built under their supervision and ammo from the factory procured by them; I will gladly for a $500 bet travel to their location, settle down behind bags of lead shot, place my face in the stock and fire those 5 rounds. :D

[Sabre]

Altjaeger, Where did you get the SAMMI pressure spec of 56,000 cup for the 338 Lapua ? I haven't been able to find max allowable pressures for it on the net.

[Altjaeger]

Altjaeger, Where did you get the SAMMI pressure spec of 56,000 cup for the 338 Lapua ? I haven't been able to find max allowable pressures for it on the net.

It was not a SAAMI standard but a C.I.P. standard I found googling. I just placed a post in the rifle forum on SAAMI/NSI and C.I.P. titled, "AK-49 Was Wrong" and so was I.:D

[AK-49]

Altjager, if you really want to know more details give Lazzeroni a phone call.. their phone number is found on their website.

[AK-49]

Saber, lapua brass is expensive for a reason so I am sure you have a valid point on the brass. I am not building or getting a 338 lupua but if I were it would be built around a stiller action...

The current production Lazzeroni rifles start at about 7 grand any idea why they are so costly?

[Altjaeger]

Altjager, if you really want to know more details give Lazzeroni a phone call.. their phone number is found on their website.

I don't want or need to call Lazzeroni. The information is all right there in the article YOU presented. Now you seem to be trying to twist, distort and misrepresent the information to support a lie in order to keep from admitting you were wrong.

By your own source the Lazzeroni Savages were a STANDARD Savage rifle with the exception that one STANDARD Savage bolt head was swapped out for another STANDARD Savage bolt head. That was because the normal bolthead for that rifle was recessed and would not fit the cartridge while the CRF bolt head would. It had nothing to do with action strength and did nothing to add strength.

You read all this in the article you provided I presume. At this point I can only deduce that you are being a dishonest broker attempting to manipulate the information in order to create a mistaken impression that would be false.

[billt]

I would have zero doubt the Savage action could handle the .338 Lapua effortlessly. I don't own the Lapua .338, but do own a Weatherby .338-378 in an Accumark with a Weatherby Mark V Action. All of these calibers run around the same pressure 55,000 to 63,000 PSI. If you think about it the modern revolver Magnums run about the same, (.454 Casull, .460 S&W, .500 S&W). If the double action revolver can take that kind of pressure, it's a gimme that a stock Savage bolt action would handle it easily. Bill T.

[Hi Ball]

Sabre the reason people have a .338-Lupua or any other caliber is because they want it in the first place simply put ok. ;) Now I went on a "wildcat" merry-go-round a couple years ago and put together a .338/300 Ultra Mag which holds 5 more grain os powder than a .338 Ultra Mag, only because a had a void to fill for a long range elk rifle. Well, that is the reason I gave the wife so take it or leave it I tell eveybody. :rolleyes:

The rifle is very accurate and Slams things very hard down range with a 225 or 250 grain bullet. The rifle weighs something like 12-lbs now and is now fitted with a 5 x 15 Bushnell Elite 3200 (mil - dots & turrets) series scope. Recoil is minimum thanks to a PAST RECOIL PAD and a porting job by Mag-NA-Port. I almost was tempted to put a muzzle brake on the rifle but just could not bring myself to screw up the fine lines of this nice looking rifle. A model 70Winchester (pre-64 action) with 3 position safety, big claw extractor and CRF magazine. Now did I hear someone mention those are NOT accurate? Well, I guess you never heard of Carlos Hathcock either and his model 70 Winchester used to shoot many targets down range to the tune of 600 to 800yards and in some cases, even a bit further. Semper Fi Gunny! ;) :cool:

I did shoot this rifle before without a port job at the bench and it was hell on wheels to my upper torso, to the tune of 60 plus pounds of recoil and nobody I know of with a proper IQ wants much of that let me tell you. Accuarcy wise it is very good and hitting things down range at 800 yards is no picnic but it can be done, just so you know. It has shot groups under 12 inches at 1000 yards but not by me understand. I don't see well enough anymore for such a rifle but there are several out there that have them only because they want them in the first place.

[Hi Ball]

AK-49, I just wanted YOU to know that I feel the same way about your posts on this subject as ALT has posted!!! :rolleyes: Your information is a little lacking in the truth department just a wee bit says the wee little people.:o:o:(

[billt]

the machined bar stock Savage receiver is "cast" shows he doesn't know as much about rifles/actions as he thinks he does.

I didn't see this until I reread the thread a little more carefully. My mistake. I don't know about you guys, but when I hear bull$h!t like that right off the bat from someone who supposedly, "knows" rifles, I'm immediately suspect of anything else that follows simply because bull$h!t tends to run on like a stream after a hard rain. Come on, all you have to do is go to Savage's website, or else look in one of their catalogs and you know for a fact in 2 minutes their actions are machined from bar stock. It was one of the many reason that drew me to their rifles. Then, in comes the "expert" to tell us they are "cast". I wouldn't let this guy clean my pool after a stupid statement like that! Bill T.

[Hi Ball]

Bill T. ****** over the past 10 years, since I been on this internet forum thing with various hunting sights etc. I have read a whole lot of BS, mostly all those guys who hunt this and that and very very few have ever really been to the mountains on a vacation camping trip, let alone hunt mule deer or elk in the high country. Same goes for all this pistol and rifle business, hell I guess another word and being more polite about matters, would be to call them fish stories in large proportion. Rock On Bill-T, GLOCKS ROCK & ROLL!!!:D

PS.....Bill I just ordered my #5 GLOCK, in a model 21-SF, pick it up next week. We just got 6 inches of rain at my place in 2 days......Wow!!!

[billt]

Hi Ball,

You'll love the Glock 21. It was our first Glock. I was fortunate enough to pick up over 20 Hi-Cap magazines for it a couple years back when Natchez had a sale on them for $13.99 in quantities of 10 or more. Now they run well over $20.00+. These magazine sleeves from MaGill's really are nice on the Mini Glocks. It allows you to use full size mags in the smaller guns without it looking silly. With these on a 13 round .45 magazine, the Glock 30 is a lot of gun that's really easy to conceal! Bill T.

http://glockstore.com/pgroup_descrip/3_Factory+Magazines+%26amp%3B+Extensions/6759_Magazine+Sleeve+for+Glock/?return=%3ftpl%3Dindex%26category_id%3D3%26_Factor y%2BMagazines%2B%26amp%3B%2BExtensions%2F

[DSGunworks]

I used to work in a steel mill where we made bearing grade steel, and all steel is cast at some point. We only made it in bar stock form, so in that relation, Savage actions are cast. You can further strengthen the steel by forging after it has been cast into bars, but I doubt that they do that. We sold bar stock to Remington, Dana Spicer, Rockwell, Timken, And many other top rated manufacturers. Surgeon forges and heat treats before machining is done, costing them more in tooling. Hence the price of their actions. The Stiller TAC338 is a much more robust action than any commercial action out there. I have seen a Remington 700 buckled under the pressures of a .338 Lapua. He was running 300 grain Matchkings at 3000 fps, no doubt causing the failure. Lug setback is normal in a lot of these commercial action 338 Lapuas. My personal gun is a Remington 700 transformed into 338 Lapua, and I have no idea how long it's gonna last. AI also had to create a more robust action to maintain the 338 Lapua

[Altjaeger]

I see that you are a commercial supplier of long range gear who may or may not have a commercial interest. Do you have a source with no industry links who has done independent testing to support your claims of superior strength?

[Altjaeger]

It also sounds like the failures are occurring with serious overloads. I still see nothing that shows a standard action failure or incipent failure if loaded to standardized pressures. Even a .30-06 can be overloaded to the point of failure with a little effort.