rebarreling my T/c Hawken

[Robie]

I'm switching out barrels on my T/c Hawken (unfortunately they were not able to help me with my accuracy problems with the original T/C barrel). I use only roundball and prefer pyrodex but am willing to use another type of non-blackpowder propellant.
My question is: can anyone give me a recommendation for a high quality barrel to fit a T/C Hawken. I can fit it a bit, but there must be something available as a 'drop-in'.
Thanks in advance,
Robie

[Just a Hunter]

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/catalog.aspx?catid=blackpowdermuzzleloaderriflebar rels

[Badger]

Robie,

What caliber T/C Hawken are you talking about and it seems it is percussion?

What accuracy issues could T/C not help you with? If the bore was at fault, I would think T/C would replace it, IF the problem was their fault. What was the problem? Why will another replacement barrel fix things?

Badger

[captchee]

Oregon barrels also makes a drop in for the TC . much better barrels then GM ,, IMO
pluse you can chose your twist , type of rifling and the leaght you want
GM doesnt offer any of those .

also i would ask the same thing as badger ?

[Robie]

There may not be a problem with the barrel ( .50 cal). I haven't taken it back to the range since the accuracy problem that I was having with it last fall. I had used Bore-Butter for many years and had very good accuracacy , As a few of you told me it probably built up in the barrel. So, I then cleaned the barrel really well after last season and sent it to T/C to have the barrel checked out. ( in hindsight, I should have waited until after I shot it). I wrote a note with it stating that I only use round balls and pyrodex RS and had very good accuracy at 100yds, untill this fall. When I finally got it back there was a note with it that it was tested with maxi-balls and B.P. and it shot a 2 1/2" group at 50yds. And that this was acceptable to them.
Maybe I should have not let it bother me, but it wasn't anywere near the quality of service that I had received from them years ago. I just felt that they really didn't take the time to address the issue that I had. The lady that I spoke to prior to shipping it to them said they were very busy and short-handed, which is why it took awhile to get it back.

Anyway, I'm going to take it to the range soon and hopefully do some shooting with it prior to next season. But if it still isn't as accurate as I would like, I'm going to replace the barrel early enough to settle it in before the season. That's why I posted for info.

I had wanted to build a new rifle this year but my employer sold our plant and the work situation has been bad. The new company broke our national contract and reduced wages on the hourly people 25-50%, with only one months notice. So a new barrel is my option if need be.

I wasn't knocking T/C. I like their products and have always recommended them to friends. However, I wasn't happy with this recent service. Maybe the Smith and Wesson takeover changed things there too. I don't know.

As always, thanks for your advice.
Robie

[Robie]

This is interesting.....
For .50 round ball percussion, what would you recommend for twist, 1/66 ? Length about the same or a bit longer for better velocity/accuacy? Type of rifling for roundball???

[Robie]

Any recommendations on the above?

[captchee]

well i would go 1 in 66-1 in 70 .
i would also ask for round bottom rifling . it cleans up much better and doesnt eat up patches or foul like square rifling does

i would also byump the barrel to 34 or 36 inches . get a good set of open rear sights with a good wide flat top and deep center grove . add to it a wide front blade that will show light on two sides , when centered on the rear .
i would also not have the sights installed . but install them myself . that way they can bee fitted for the best location to see them.
once you have that set up and have worked up a load , you should be putting ball on ball at 100 from the bench

[Robie]

Thanks Capchee. That would be what I'm looking/hoping for. I'll be shooting it this week to decide. It used to be a tight shooter at 50. Should I 'cold brown' it myself or have it done for better quailty in the hot-type process?

How have your competitive shoots been going? Any pics available?

Thanks again, Robie.

[captchee]

well you can brown , eather cold or hot , even rust black if you like .
or for that mater salt blue .

my shootings been good , kinda fell off here as of late. but i guess some days your up , some days your down , goes in spirts
did real well this spring . took first at a couple bigger events , but then fell off some . still managing to stay in the top 5 but its been a struggle .
just been to busy and cant get to the range as much as i would like . but thats life i guess

[tjhuels]

Why not use black powder?

Cleans just as easy as the others, sparks and fires a bit better than the Pyros.

Wonder what your reason for prefering the others is.

TH
Minnesota

[Robie]

Hi TJ.
I just don't want a class A explosive around the house. BP isn't as stable as the substitutes. I used to use it. I've had good luck with the Pyrodex. I don't believe the current problem is the powder. I shot it again today and had the same results at 50 yds. Three shots, 8 inches apart. Reduced the load to 80grs from 100grs (RS). not any better. Tried some Pyrodex P and couldn't get a stable group. Shot off a steady bench using a 40lb BullsBag, so that eliminated me as the problem.
Thanks, Robie.

[Otter]

Robie,

Haven't re-read ALL your posts about the problems with your T/C barrel, so, take this for what you pay for it . . .

Start from scratch - assume nothing is known about what shot good in the past - after all, it's a NEW barrel, right? Therefore, you know nothing about it. CLEAN IT, CLEAN IT, CLEAN IT. Start with a 50 gr load, .015 patch and ball. If you use pre-lubed patches, make sure there is not too much lube on them (I personally prefer spit patch) and load the barrel. Start at 25 yds. Work your load up (or down!) in 5 grain increments. Don't worry about hitting a "bullseye" yet. Aim at the same spot on the target and see where the shots group, you can adjust the sights as necessary later. Every barrel has a "sweet" spot as far as how much powder it likes, how thick the patch is and how tight it likes to be loaded. You may find that this barrel likes a lighter load, then again, you may find it likes a stouter load. I had a .54 perc with 29" barrel and 1:48 twist that wouldn't hit a 4'x4' target at 25 yds until I got to 80 grains of powder, then it settled in. Then I've another .54 with a 32" barrel that is perfectly happy with 50 grains of powder out to 50 yds and 75 gr at 100 yds.

Don't worry about the sights until you get the barrel broke-in and that may take up to 200 rounds through it. Work on "group" for now (that's the rifle and the components) then worry about WHERE the group is, later (that's the sights and you). Just be patient and change ONLY one thing at a time. You will get it to come around, it just takes time . . .

Shooting ML's ain't rocket surgery, but does take patience.

[Robie]

Otter, thanks for your reply.
This barrel has a few hundred rounds through it already. I had worked a load up for it when I got it and 100grs. of Pyrodex RS with a ball and patch work real well (actually, it wasn't real finicky and shot well with other powder amounts). However, last season it was all over the paper. I don't know what changed and I'm getting damn frustrated with it. I am about to buy a new barrel for it. I will take it back to the range and start over again working up a load. Captchee suggested to do that also. I don't understand why it would change like that. The sights are tight and it's been cleaned well. I've also tried different thicknesses of patches, lubed and spit-patch.
I've got a Renegade and a CVA Squirrel rifle that I built from a kit and they shoot well. I've been muzzleloading since 1975, so I'm somewhat familiar with the variables to get this to group. But now, I have no idea. I sent it to Thompson Center this past winter and called them and included a note with the rifle explaining what the problem was and what I used for a load. The person that I spoke to said they'd include notes from our conversation in the log for the rifle when they check it out. They also said that they were very busy and shorthanded, which might cause a delay in getting it back. I told them no problem.
I got the rifle back a couple months later with a note saying 'tested at 50yds. using Maxi-ball , xx grains of BP ( i forget the amount of grains now), got 2 1/2" group. We consider this acceptable.' I called to find out anything more but I was told that since they were so busy they had to use people from manufactering to do some of the gunsmithing work. They didn't even use a load similar to my note included with the rifle and in the log. Should have at least used a patched roundball.
I work in a manufacturing plant and I understand when ya get backlogged with work/customer issues. I also will buy T/c again, I like their products. I just think they dropped the ball on this one.
Thanks again, Robie

[rimrock]

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/productdetail.aspx?id=323940

got a buddy using one of these and getting consistent 3"-4" 3 shot groups off the bench at 100 yards with patched round balls and 90 grains of 2f using iron sites so that's darn accurate

[captchee]

3 to 4 inch groups ? it should do better then that from the bench

45 cal FIE
weather .
Rain , steady drizzle.
Wind 10-15 from the south
range 50 yards

Now here is this fellas 10 shots at his tube , hung at 50 yards .
Rifle = 45Cal FIE Kentucky cap lock
Load = 40 Gr 3F , .018 ticking patch. Lube spit . Ball .433
unsuported , off hand

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/delete220.jpg

here is mine " ohhh and not one clatch in the rain , thank you very much
rifle = hershel House "flint lock" built in 1970 , 54 cal , forged iron barrel
Load = 80 grians 3F , .018 ticking patch , lube = spit . ball .530
unsported , off hand 50 yards

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/delete219.jpg


now i cant do that at 100 , off hand , but she will off the bench
ohh and yest those are paper towel tubes .

Robie , you know , i was thinking about this last night . i remeber you having this issue last fall and asking about it on the other site .

something i dont recall any of us considering .
maybe its not the rifle thats change , maybe its you .
now this may seem odd to you , but i have seen something like this before with a person who had lost confidence in their rifle .
do you have a friend that can go out with you and shoot ?
give them your rifle and your 80 grain load . dont look at the shots , just shoot 5 shots . then go look . like otter said . dont worry about being in the bull , worry only about the group .
dont give them a big bull on the target . make it a small one , about 2 inches across . place the target at 50 yards and shoot off the bench .
infact if that person you know well enough , just give him 5 rounds and walk away . dont even look at him or the target tell all is done
see what their group is with your rifle ?

if there group is better then yours , then its safe to assume that the problem rests with you not the gun .

when i send a new rifle to a customer , i always have shot it for group from a bench . that way , i know what that barrel is capable of . i then send that target with the rifle with the listed load

[Robie]

Captchee, I've considered that it's me also. I'll have my son and bro-in-law shoot it next week while we visit. My B-I-L has a range at his home. But, I have to say that I'm shooting off a solid steel/wood bench with the rifle on a 40lb BullsBag shooting bag, my target is a large (8" wide) V-shape that I set the front sight on the bottom of, for a small aiming point. I use the double set triggers and squeeze the shot off without expectation. I don't think that I'm coming into play on it. But I'll have them both do as you suggest. It'll eliminate me in this. Any other ideas will be appreciated too. I may bring the Renegade and .32 Squirrel rifle too.
Also, I switched out the barrel pin with an old one I had, for no special reason. I don't know how much of an effect a barrel pin would have as long as it's not loose. This isn't like tuning a modern rifle were the tightness of the receiver bolts change the barrel harmonics/accuracy, is it?
Thanks for your advice.
Robie.

[captchee]

This isn't like tuning a modern rifle were the tightness of the receiver bolts change the barrel harmonics/accuracy, is it?

yes , it very much can be , though i wouldnt think to the exstent you are speaking of .
with muzzleloaders , also this tends to show as walk exspecialy on improperly built long rifles .
see as the barrel heats up , the mettel exspands . if the keys or pins are so tight in the underlugs so as not let the barrel move , then it begins to pull one way or another .
same thing with the harmonics . if the pins are to tight , then it doesnt flow correctly and the muzzle is thrown at diffrent angles , shot to shot

also as a note here , this is where bedded or floating barrels come into play . IE harmonics .
at the load your using you might be getting harmonics effecting things ???
exspecialy if the barrel isnt bedded and is touched by the nose cap .
??? not sure but something you might check .
to do this , drop your charge all the way down to 50 grains of 3F
if your using pyro , drop it to 40 grains .
change nothing else . fire for a group at 25 yards . then fire a group at 50 . the 50 yard group should be on the same side and eather in the same spot or just a tad higher .
then return to you 100 grain load and fire 25 and 50 .
the group should not change between the two and should be in the same location as the 40 grain charge at 25 and no higher then the 40 grain charge at 50 . if it is then you are getting some harmonics issues . check the key and make sure its not touching frount or rear on the underlug . then look at the nose cap . is the edge higher then the bottom of the stock inlet for the barrel channel . then look at the under rib . is it setting cleanly to the nose cap or is it forced hard against it ..

its a long shot but ??? might take a look , cant hurt

[Rattus58]

To say that black powder isn't safe around your house because it is a class a explosive is silly. To not want to use black powder is one thing because of cleaning or whatever other excuse, bottom line is that it is the easiest most consistent powder today to be shooting.

Aloha.... :cool:

[captchee]

i guess i missed that part somewhere .
ill have to get outside in my shope and get a photo of a can of 3F that went through our TIPI fire some years back .
there were actualy 3 cans in my shoot box . 2F, 3F and 1 can of 4F .
the whole thing went up and was done in laess then 5 minutes and got so hot that it melted pewter and lead . it completely insenterated everything inside . Wool blankets , hides, trunks and all the clothes inside of them . the shoot boz was on the out side where i had left it before we went to the range .
it to was on fire , the whole back side and top gone .
it got hot enough that the paint burned off part of the cans and the cans swelled and warped . but the powder did not go off
ill have to dig up the photos and post them

[Robie]

Rattus and Captchee, thanks for the info on BP. I have seen BP laid out on a line and it Lit and flashed a 6 foot line easily. That had made me concerned about having it in the house. I'll try it again.

The Hawken looks ok around the nose-cap and barrel. The under rib has a space between it and the stock. Lug looks ok.
I had my son put a few shots thru it at 25 yards with 50 grains and it had 2 shots 3 inches apart and another shot farther off to the left. The weather didn't hold and we didn't finish the shoot. I'll try again soon.

Thanks again, Robie.

[Rattus58]

Hi Robie.... :)

That's one of the nice things about black powder... it goes off when it's supposed to... :)