The "Alleged" PA Deer Audit.

[Badger]

Today I received the July 3, 2009 issue of "Pennsylvania Outdoor News." On page 2 is an article entitled, "Audit of deer-management program has been a sham from the beginning."

The article discusses how the Wildlife Management Institute has been associated with the Pennsylvania Game Commission since September 25, 1999. It is a good read and if ANYONE has a contrary opinion of the deer audit or the article, I direct your attention to the Letters to the Editor link: paoutdoornews@atlanticbb.net. I, and many other folks, will read your letter to the editor, if it has merit and sees print.

Badger

[GF.]

Can you give us a link to the article? Kind of hard to have an opniion without seeing it first.....:rolleyes:

[Badger]

GF,

The website is www.paoutdoornews.com. Hope this helps. I could not find a link to the article. Maybe it is not on the site, yet.

Badger

[venado]

I didn't find it there. Knowing the author might help with a search.

[Renegade]

I didn't find it either. The only thing there is this poll question:
After reading the story on Page 1, are you concerned that connections between the Game Commission and Wildlife Management Institute, the company conducting the audit of the agency’s deer program, will affect the results?
Yes - 34 (25%)
No - 101 (75%)

I guess their readers aren't too worried about prior dealings. Everythings a conspiracy to some I guess!:rolleyes:

[venado]

Thanks Renegade for that bit of information. I suspect the "yes" vote in that poll is far higher than its actual percent of total readership since people that are strongly against something ("yes" voters in this case) generally will be more vocal and active than those that are unconcerned on an issue. I also suspect that the USP will attempt to try to stack the poll, but of course I'm a guy that just is suspicious of fools in general.

Any assistance on the author or help to a link to your post yet Badger??

I'm somewhat familiar with the situation regarding the selection of WMI and can't wait to make an attempt to harpoon another "conspiracy theory" of the USP and their black helicopter minions. Waiting on Badger to provide the bait.:D

[Badger]

Venado,

The author is Greg Levengood. I am sure you will have lots to say without even reading the article. If you have facts to refute Levengood, the Letter to the Editor link has been provided. Write on!

Badger

[venado]

Thank you Badger for the author's name.

Now we know who the author is, Levengood, a lead persona in the USP or as Renegade says the "PUS".:eek:

We can guess what he said, but unlike you of the PUS clan, we would prefer to use facts rather than imagination in a reply to unknown words. Give us a link to what he wrote or scan it and post the scan. We know you can do it if you want comments, or perhaps this post is like your post requesting info on QDM that you conveniently never got back to....:cool:

[Badger]

Venado,

If you KNOW Levengood has it wrong, WHY don't you write a rebuttal article benefitting all Pennsylvania Outdoor News readers? Contact Editor Jeff Mulhollem, you have his link, and let him know you will share your PA smarts. Like I said before, write on! When will we see your Pennsylvania deer article? Why make the world wait? As for "PUS" and other dungslingers, what do they have to offer? Maybe they will help you with your PA Outdoors News article. There may be a Pulitzer prize there for all you non-resident PA "Experts."

If you cannot pull up Levengood's article, may I suggest you subscribe to the Pennsylvania Outdoor News? It is $18.00 per year. It is a good read; better once we see your articles therein.

Badger

[Renegade]

"As for "PUS" and other dungslingers, what do they have to offer?"
Up to this point, not much of anything besides a lawsuit and lots of division. Oh, and the 'ol "acid rain" mantra.

Badger, could you give us some highlights of Levengoods article? I'm sure it's just some recycled comments from his boss slinsky or John Street who admittedly is an "inquisitive contrarian" who writes frequently with humor, about current events in fish and wildlife research. But nonetheless, I'm sure it is easily refuted with fact and common sense. His articles usually are.

[Altjaeger]

Levengood was written up in an article published in the July, 2005 "Field and Stream" titled "The Deer Wars" as an opponent of Alt. From what I find he was the USP Chairman of the Board from 2005-2007. After that Google citations became a bit slim.

Searching through google on the cited publication I found an article from early this year where WMI almost pulled out of the study for fear of being sucked into a lawsuit with the USP. But them most businesses seek to avoid lawsuits, right or wrong. They are expensive even when you win. I found nothig newer on the study in that publication except the survey again.

For those who wish to see how Pennsylvania's sportmen feel I recommend the forum at PennsylvaniaGame,com Outdoor issues. You will find the USP a vocal minority whose vericity is also often quesioned by other members there as well.

[Renegade]

Most of the sites are like that. I only know of one that isn't, because it seems the folks that have been banned from other sites or those that are like minded, have all flocked to one place. However, I've never heard of the site you mentioned and when I did a search on it, it turned up nothing similar. Could you provide a link to it please, Id like to check it out.

The naysayers always like to claim they are the majority and everyone thinks like them. But in reality it's far from the truth. Sure there are people upset on different issues, but most are willing to either ride it out, let the experts make the calls, or do some research for themselves to make an educated opinion. Antler restrictions are an overwhelming hit, the license increase is due to a political holdup (partly for leverage, partly bad economic times to increase anything), and the poaching bill is due to the NRA meddling. The herd reduction has the most upset which is understandable. In a nutshell, we had so many deer that it spoiled some and now that it's gone back to less than what it normally should have been if we wouldn't have gotten the damage from having too many for too long, they don't like it. I think most level headed, objective thinking people understand that we have to endure some pain for future gain. There's still plenty of deer around in most parts, but some hunters are too bull headed to change tactics and follow the food. They would rather sit on that same rock they always did, which you could do when the deer density was so thick, but since it has thinned out it's not as simple anymore. I myself hunt a 3 county area and I can always find deer. I don't always get a shot or a harvest. but then again it's called "hunting".

It's much easier to whine, complain, and recycle rumor; than it is to educate yourself, adapt and overcome. We have alot of "weekend hunter" types that dust the gun and boots off the weekend before the opener, but care very little the other 350+ days of the year. They don't stay current with hunting issues such as deer and forest management. Ignorance is bliss!

[Altjaeger]

Renegade, I am assuming you are adressing my post and if not I apologize. As luck has it I could not find the link I followed earlier and am unsure how to post them. I did go to "huntingpa.com", clicked on talk forums. One there is titled "Outdoor Issues". Around page 4 there is a thread titled "Deer Audit" of 2 pages. It will be obvious if you go here that the audit nor the USP are hot topic's in their forums. In the one thread it is fairly obvious that the USP is not highly respected.

[Laturkeyhtr]

Alt, Not to insult your intelligence, but did you check the history and see if you could recognize where you were. :D

Renegage, For someone from PA, you sure seem to follow the same mindset as our resident Texan. That gives him some credit for what he is able to find. Thanks so much for your input.

Hey Badger, glad to see you still checking in. Sorry, but I have been absent some (quite a bit actually) lately.

[Altjaeger]

Though I use our computer some I am only one of three users. Therefore most my browsing and posting is done from a MSNTV limiting my options. Later I did find the other thread and it is in the same forum.

[Altjaeger]

Renegade, I am sure you are right about various forums attracting people of like mind.

One of the other indicators to me of what Pennsylvania outdoorsmen feel is that the USP seems out on a limb by itself in opposing the PGC.

In the meantime the Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs have solidly lined up behind the PGC from the beginning and supported the audit as well. The Federation includes the United Bowhunters of Pennsylvania, the Pennsylvania Rifle and Pistol Association ( I assume a fair percentage are hunters), the PA chapters of Safari Club International, and the Allegheny County Sportsman's League. Included also are the following conservation organizations, some of which can be fairly assumed to contain a high percentage of hunters. Audubon Pennsylvania, PA chapters of the National Wild Turkey Foundation, Sierra Club, Pheasants Forever, the Ruffed Grouse Society, Citizens for Pennsylvania's Future and the Chesapeake Bay Foundation. Then to complete the roster are four members that could be fairly said to have a financial interest as well. CNX Land Resourse. ECO System Management, PA Landscape and Nursery Products and the Pennsylvania Grange. These organizations have banded to seek common ground in the use of resources. I expect hunters make up the lions share of members.

I gather that the USP called for the audit also...until they saw it might happen. Then realizing it might not support their goals they launched a campaign to discredit it before even begun.

[Badger]

Guys,

I could not find the link to the July 3,2009 article in PA Outdoor News. Why not send an email to Jeff Mulhollem, Editor, and ASK him for the link to the article in question? Failing that, why not order out a copy of that edition?

Maybe Venado will get a complimentary copy when HIS PA deer article refutes Levengood. How is your article coming Venado?


Badger

[Laturkeyhtr]

Badger, I will take you up on the challenge and see if I can get the article. However, I have been unable to find the magazine listed online. I do find an online site, but I don't think it is the magazine. IF you will take the time to look through your copy and see if you can find the site and share it with me, I will see what I can do about getting the article. The link you provided is simply an email addy that sets up so you can reply. Maybe if I try that link I can get a response.

[Renegade]

Altjaeger – Yes, I was addressing your post earlier. And yes I am familiar with the huntingpa website. It’s probably the largest Pa. specific site and offers a good cross-section with several thousand users. And since we’re talking about the PUS, here’s a little history on the two. A few years ago it was discovered that some users had as many as 10 user log-ons. Their purpose was to give the impression that many folks thought just like they do by supporting the same ideas and opinions. However some of them tripped themselves up and replied while forgetting which persona they currently were. So they did some checking of IP addy’s and banned a lot of them.

Your right, the PUS is out on a limb by themselves. Not only do they disagree with PA sportsmen and their organizations, but they disagree with many well known experts from around the country.

I believe the Federation has somewhere in the neighborhood of 110,000 members, which includes the individual members plus each clubs members. But when it comes to supporting the new management plan, we have to include a good portion of the non hunting population as well. Because in Pa. the wildlife is “owned” by all citizens and the PGC is mandated to manage all 436 species of wildlife. So the PGC has to make a lot of people happy.

Badger – Do you have a way to scan the article and make a jpeg or a pdf file. Their website used to put a few articles online but now they only give a sentence or two and then want you to subscribe to get any content..

[Badger]

Renegade,

UNLESS and UNTIL you learn to be civil, I will not assist you in any way. You may think it is CUTE to refer to the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania (USP) as "PUS."

WHEN you gain a bit of civility, you will be treated accordingly. Meantime, rage on as a dungslinger who is welcome here by those of similiar ilk. I refuse to respond to dungslingers. You are a credit to yourself! LOL.


Badger

[Altjaeger]

Renegade,

UNLESS and UNTIL you learn to be civil, I will not assist you in any way. You may think it is CUTE to refer to the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania (USP) as "PUS."

WHEN you gain a bit of civility, you will be treated accordingly.


Badger

:) Now THAT is mildly amusing. How fortunate you are that we no longer have the archives with which to remind you of your own intemperance in name calling of Dr. Alt, the PGC and others. Comparing his statements to yours would be as to comparing a tennis match to a bar room brawl in civility.

[Renegade]

Wow, Badger I didn't mean to upset you but I can't seem to figure out where I was uncivil at. Could you direct me to it? My apologies if something offended you but it certainly wasn't on purpose. I can't recall ever being called uncivil.

Pa. Unified Sportsman... Unified sportsman of Pa. TomAtoes... TomOtoes PUS, USP, PSU, they're only initials. Everyone knew who I meant. I guess I can now assume your a Unified dues paying member?? Actually, I have only ever met one unified member who was able to be civil. I'm guessing you may be the second. I would truely like to debate a civil unified member who has an open mind sometime because they seem to believe alot of easily refutable lines of thinking.

Maybe you could answer me this. Why is it that usp guys can call pretty much anyone who doesn't agree with them, slanderous, belittling, condescending terms and it's okay. But then they turn around and accuse others of doing what they're doing? You guys can bust on the PGC, UBP, DCNR, etc... but don't talk ill of the usp! why is that? If you dish it out, you have to be able to take it.

[Laturkeyhtr]

Actually, I have only ever met one unified member who was able to be civil. I'm guessing you may be the second.

If you dish it out, you have to be able to take it.

Now that is some profound statements coming from someone who "has their feet on the ground in PA". Don't wait to long for Badger to answer your question, he is not real good at that. ;)

[Altjaeger]

Now that is some profound statements coming from someone who "has their feet on the ground in PA". Don't wait to long for Badger to answer your question, he is not real good at that. ;)

Maybe while we are waiting Hellrazor has managed to find a few answers in the last 6 weeks.

One thing you can say about Badger is that he is persistant and predictable. He will come out fire wildly and ineffectually before ducking back to his den to try again another day.

Most USP supporters are one shot dribbles.

[Renegade]

Yes, the ones I've seen on other sites are too. No refuting evidence, only opinion. From there it goes to name calling and then the gutter, then they disappear or get banned for breaking the rules. And it's a shame that they don't want to try and heal the division they've caused within the hunting community.

[BILL K]

After the "Lancaster Mountain Lion Fiasco" it amazes me that the USP still exists. It's hard to believe their members would be so forgiving of how their money was misspent.

[Altjaeger]

After the "Lancaster Mountain Lion Fiasco" it amazes me that the USP still exists. It's hard to believe their members would be so forgiving of how their money was misspent.

I had forgotten that one. Badger told us he had photographed the cow that the cat had clawed up. Those stupid state biologist that were colluding with the PGC tried to pass it off as a freak sunburn or something but Badger had proof.

Unfortunately for some reason he was unable to scan and attach them for us. Venado and others offered to post them if he would Email them, but it just did not work out. :)

[BILL K]

I had forgotten that one. Badger told us he had photographed the cow that the cat had clawed up. Those stupid state biologist that were colluding with the PGC tried to pass it off as a freak sunburn or something but Badger had proof.

Unfortunately for some reason he was unable to scan and attach them for us. Venado and others offered to post them if he would Email them, but it just did not work out. :)

Cow? I was talking about the cat that clawed the Amish guy, although I do recall reports of livestock being attacked in the vicinity. But, the true believers I heard from insisted it was a horse, not a cow. Unfortunately, although they also took pics, the internet must have been broken in their area also because they couldnt post them for all to see either.
Fortunately, when the cougars (3) got out of hand and two of them actually attacked the Amish guy the USP was there to collect the evidence and prevent a coverup.
Well, here it is a year later and we still havent heard from USP about it, but at least they used their members money and bought pizza for the Amish folks that showed up to watch the fun, and a good time was had by all.
Well, not quite all, the Amish guy who claimed to have been attacked was sent away to get his lugnuts tightened.

[venado]

sent away to get his lugnuts tightened.


Now that is classic..!:D

[Renegade]

And let's not forget that the hot water the amish guy got into for filing false claims is being defended by the usp presidents own daughter who is a lawyer. How convenient. I guess he has to recoup that pizza money somehow.

[Altjaeger]

I had not heard about this "cougar attack". I ran a search and read a few newspaper reports. You fellows barely scraped the surface. The more I read the worse or funnier it got depending on how you view it.

Sometimes I am really glad to get those reports from "on the ground" that Badger speaks of!!! :D

[BILL K]

I had not heard about this "cougar attack". I ran a search and read a few newspaper reports. You fellows barely scraped the surface. The more I read the worse or funnier it got depending on how you view it.

Sometimes I am really glad to get those reports from "on the ground" that Badger speaks of!!! :D

Dammit! I'm no typist and this will take all morning to answer, but it's a rainy day and I've got some time to waste.

For those of you who arent familiar with "The Great Lancaster Pa. Mountain Lion hunt" here's a short version.
Let's start by touching on the "fact" that according to the USP that there are no longer any deer in Pa. and besides mismanagement their demise has been caused by the Pa. Game Commision releasing mountain lions. they claim the PGC releases these lion to placate the auto insurance companies who are tired of paying out claims on car/deer accidents and have bought and paid for the PGC.
Now, it's a fact that the last eastern cougar was shot in pa. back when Jesus was a teenager, but as in any state there will always be those folks who dont quite know what they're looking at when they encounter a creature outdoors and make an honest mistake in identification. Add in the email hoaxes we all get claiming cougars have been shot in all of obama's fifty seven states and it's understandable that gullible people believe they're all over the place.
Like this one.
http://z.about.com/d/urbanlegends/1/0/t/w/mountain_lion1sm.jpg

Okay, that's just some of the background. There's more, but you get the picture.
Now, whenever there's a report/sighting of a mountain lion the PGC, like the game authorities in any state where this creature is not common, is obligated to investigate.
Of course, being that they never find any lion, tracks, scat, kills, or any other indicator that there ever was such a lion, their existence is denied.
Well, when there was news of an actual mountain lion attack the USP decided to step in and prove the Game Commision was once again doing a coverup.
It was a great day in Lancaster Pa. when a town meeting was arranged so the Game Commision could investigate and the USP came to do their own investigation. The representatives from the PGC explained the unlikelyhood that this was a real attack while the USP bought pizza for all who attended.
And the fun began.
The story was that the Amish gentleman was out strolling about on this warm summer day when he spotted a mountain lion and shot and wounded it. The way he told the story was that he followed this wounded cougar but before he could recover it another lion jumped out of a tree and knocked him to the ground. The brave Amishman's rifle was knocked out of reach so, as he lay there with the attacking lion reared up on it's hind legs and clawing at him, he pulled his trusty pocket knife and fended off the attack until the cougar tired and left the scene.
I cant find pics that will blow up to full size but if you Google you'll find thumbnails of the horrible injuries. You'll recognize them because they look remarkably like the scratches you got the last time you went berry picking.
You'l also find pics of the bloodtrail. They're the ones that have no droplets, just a two inch wide stream across the blacktop that looks quite a bit like transmission oil poured from a plastic milk jug.
The PGC found no dead lion at the end of the bloodtrail, nor did they find tracks, scat, etc. and declared the whole affair to once again be a hoax. It also became apparent that this particular Amishman was known throughout the community for having very few seeds in his melon and the church deacons agreed that a trip to Happy Valley was in order.
While all this was taking place the USP was doing there own investigation which began with the release of a couple of genuine east coast lion hounds, (A rare breed due to the fact that there are no east coast lions), which failed to bark "Trail", or "Treed". They too took blood samples to be sent away for testing.
The samples the PGC took all came back negative, while the samples taken by the USP were never mentioned again.
That's the short version of "THe Great Lancaster Mountain Lion Attack". I'm sure others can elaborate upon it, but as I said, I'm no typist.

One other thing, too good not to pass on.
A couple of others claimed to have seen not two, but three mountain lions in the Lancaster Pa. area that summer. One black, one brown, and one of the standard mountain lion color. When I explained to a true believer that cougars only come in one color he told me that it was obvious that some pranksters had captured these lions, dyed them, and then released them. How ya gonna beat logic like that?!!!

(My apologies for the hijack, but I do feel that it gives others an idea of just how much credibility the USP has.)

[Renegade]

I would pretty much concur with your short story. And just to add from recollection, the PGC got back the test results of the blood on the knife the amishman used to stick the "lion". It was deer blood!

[Laturkeyhtr]

Bill, don't worry about hijacking a thread as long as you write as entertaining story as you did.

AS for the "lugnuts being tightened" I think this other one is just as unique . . . ."known throughout the community for having very few seeds in his melon . . . . . " :D


Of course, being that they never find any lion, tracks, scat, kills, or any other indicator that there ever was such a lion, their existence is denied.


Now this describes what happens in Louisiana. I have also thought they (LDWF) must won't to keep people from being scared in the Sportsmans Paradise. However, I think it was last year through remote camera capture, they finally admitted that it appears there might be at least one in LA. They couldn't disprove the guys picture and where it was taken.

[Sabre]

Now this describes what happens in Louisiana. I have also thought they (LDWF) must won't to keep people from being scared in the Sportsmans Paradise. However, I think it was last year through remote camera capture, they finally admitted that it appears there might be at least one in LA. They couldn't disprove the guys picture and where it was taken.

One was finally caught on film in NY last year after many years of reported sightings. Kinda hard to deny the picture as it was caught on the NY/ Canada border by a border security remote camera.

[Renegade]

I believe there's been a couple actually caught in the wild in PA over the years. However, every time they've been pets that escaped and not wild free ranging cats.

[Pa greed commission]

Ahhh, Renegade. I see you trying to bully people here just like on your lil' pabucks site. lmao.

Funny the misinformation you choose to spread, yet dont do so anywhere that open discussion is possible, since that only leaves you looking very silly.

This audit is a joke, being done by several PGC past personell. One lead biologist in charge of this "investigation" and another the chairman of the company doing it. Really objective eh? lmao.

Also really love your discussion about Mr. Bryon Shissler.lol. His word is the gospel I take it? lmao. Hmmm, dont think most hunters or anyone wishing to be "unbiased" for that matter would think his words the gospel. He ranked PA's deer plan the best? lmao. Wonder if it had anything to do with the fact HE WAS ON THE PGC DEER MANAGEMENT TEAM and helped develop the deer plan from there, and also on the audubon deer study group, not to mention having been a dcnr consultant. lol

Now lets review for those such as Renegade who may be lost in all that info...

Dcnr is antideer.... Shissler was dcnr consultant.
Audubon is antideer.....Shissler was audubon affilated as well.
The pgc deer plan was designed to slaughter the deer herd for extremist biodiversity agenda......Shissler was on the Pa gameless commission deer management team....

Shissler said the deer plan was the best in the nation. WTF do you think he would say? DUH! lmao.:eek::eek:

What a clown.


Btw, Mr. Shissler... ALSO worked for WMI. The auditing company doing our fine unbiased objective audit. lmao.

[southtexas]

Welcome to the Board, PGC. BTW, are you always this grumpy?

[Pa greed commission]

Thanks for the welcome Tex. No, not always grumpy. Have just dealt with this "character" on other boards for years. Hes a rebel environmentalist with a cause. Doesnt care one lick about hunting or hunters. Makes his rounds of the boards yelping belittling hunters, ignoring facts and preaching the gospel according to the Pa Audubon Society... And generally all around annoying to those that must listen to his tripe.

We have big problems in Pa. We have environmental extremists running our game management currently. Audubon and other conservationist extremist agencies holding high places as legislators and within the management agency Pa game commission itself. Our agency is financially running itself into the ground because of the circumstances and tensions among legislators towards the agency, hunter numbers are declining at over double the national average. We have the "deer wars", hunter satisfaction at an all time low and lower than any other state in the nation (do you know any other state who's deer management leader need wear a bullet proof vest to meetings?) and thats just the tip of the iceberg.

Pa is currently in very bad shape. Similar to the ridiculous views of management you'd see with nonhunters dictating management in states like New Jersey and California, which doesnt sit very well in a state that started out in this whole mess with over a million hunters.

[Altjaeger]

Greedy, how about some sources and studies/numbers of your own to back these two post of "opinion". So far I see a USP mole and "minority" report of verbosity.

[Pa greed commission]

No opinions, very little of my post is "opinion". Facts are facts. Sources and studies? To back which positions? Any of the data I spoke of can be found on the Pa game commission website. Look for the annual wildlife reports and you might learn that everything is exacty as stated, such as the reproductive/herd health data I cited etc. That little snippet as well as the herd change chart can be found on the 07 annual report. pgcs own data does not support their own failed program.

If you need proof of Shissler being nothing more than an antideer baffoon that wants the deer slaughter to continue, just do a websearch for his name. You will see he was connected in every way I mentioned on the last post.

I am not usp, nor a "mole" but I am a Pa hunter who would like to set the facts straight. Seems a couple jokers go from board to board in attempt at damage control and play very fast and very loose with the truth..;)

If there is anything you dont understand about the facts and how the majority feel about the miserably failed deer plan, please feel free to ask. though you will have to be a bit more specific about that which you are asking, and exacty what you want "proof" of.

[Renegade]

Altjaeger - Didn't take you long to see right thru him. this is the same clown who goes around to all the message board websites, under different names, spews his factless opinions, then tries to ignore all the other user posts that debunk his "claims", then throws a tantrum when users make him look bad and then gets booted when he starts swearing and slandering users. He's really quite predictable and lives in his own world.

Beau, flatcat, guru, cornelius, PA greed comm, or whatever you want to be called, I've ask you before to prove any information I've provided wrong and you couldn't then, so I'll ask you again to do the same. And I only post in public forums, otherwise you wouldn't see them. Guess that's another comment you didn't think through. I'm not sure if you even understand the definition of what a "fact" is. You clearly confuse your opinions as facts. Is that what the usp teaches you to do?

Seems just about everyone but you feels the audit is going to be a fair evaluation from an outside reputable source. But I guess if I was in your position where the walls are about to collapse on your glass house and expose your lies, I'd be scared too.

You must be mistaking me for someone else (or just confused again) on the discussion about Shissler. In fact I don't even care for the guy. And he was never part of the "PGC deer management team". More misinformation on your part. Do you even know what biodiversity is?? (hint: it's not just a buzz word)

His comeback prediction: It will contain lots of slander and opinions, and very little solid fact or verifiable ones; plus there will be something about the pgc, their employees, their families, and friends of their families. Civility will be absent.

[venado]

I have been away from the boards for a bit and it is very interesting to return to see the new poster Pa greed commission. DAFC welcome to the site.(Because that full name is hard to type for a very slow one finger typist like I am, I hope that an acronym will be sufficient so I dont confuse your initials with the real thing. I'll just use PGC = Pennsylvania Game Commission and DAFC = Pa greed commission.)

Renegade is fairly new to this site too and most of his posts that I am aware of really show up on only a few threads of which this is one. DAFC has suggested that Renegade doesn't deal in rational posts here or in other forums. Not knowing either Renegade or DAFC but having read the posts by both of them on the latest two major threads in this forum it is clear that the clarity of thought lies in Renegade's posts and the irrational opinion posts are those belonging to DAFC. That of course is just one observer's opinion but I suspect future posts by both will bear out my opinion.

[Pa greed commission]

"this is the same clown who goes around to all the message board websites, under different names, spews his factless opinions, then tries to ignore all the other user posts that debunk his "claims","

Untrue, but you might wanna do something other than hurl insults and ignore every point that ive made and fact Ive posted in the last few posts....and claims of yours Ive "debunked" Otherwise that might seem more than a little hypocritical? Might wanna reread the overall exchange to really see how funny that is. lol :p

"then throws a tantrum when users make him look bad and then gets booted when he starts swearing and slandering users. He's really quite predictable and lives in his own world."

Typical lies which you are known for. OOOPS, he considers that "slander". Even when its a proven lie, got forbid you say so! lol Otherwise you are throwing a "temper tantrum". lol. I throw alot of temper tantrums. lol thats why i use so many "LOL'S" lol.:D

"Beau, flatcat, guru, cornelius, PA greed comm, or whatever you want to be called,"

Nice attempt at discrediting since you cant do so via the facts or debate. Pretty pathetic attempt.

"I've ask you before to prove any information I've provided wrong and you couldn't then,"

Lie 10010. I did every time asked and when I did, I got booted from your little site because of your complete and total embarrassment. Your opinions and skewed ideas simply do not hold up under rebuttle and when confronted with the facts

"I'm not sure if you even understand the definition of what a "fact" is. You clearly confuse your opinions as facts."

Alot of words used to say absolutely nothing. No semblance whatsoever to reality...But hey when you dont have the intellectual capability to let your knowledge stand on its own...a handy insult will do right? lmao.

"Is that what the usp teaches you to do?"

Wow. What did those guys do? Steal a girl off you in high school or something? lmao.

"Seems just about everyone but you feels the audit is going to be a fair evaluation from an outside reputable source."

Lots of others do not. Then alot of others arent aware of 2 high ranking pgc officials taking part. One the chairman of the company the other the lead biologist in charge of the audit. One was deputy executive director at pgc and the other was also a pgc official. Doesnt really matter if I were the only one on the planet who thought it skewed, thats my opinion yes OPINION based on the facts. Facts are pretty ugly.

"But I guess if I was in your position where the walls are about to collapse on your glass house and expose your lies, I'd be scared too."

Lmao. Yeah, im just terrified.

"You must be mistaking me for someone else (or just confused again) on the discussion about Shissler. In fact I don't even care for the guy. And he was never part of the "PGC deer management team". More misinformation on your part."

Shouldnt speak of that which you have no clue of. You did that often enough previously. Made yourself look stupid more than i made you look stupid. But it still hurt your ego enough to ban me didnt it? lol.

" Do you even know what biodiversity is?? (hint: it's not just a buzz word)"

ABSOLUTELY. I know all about it thanks. I know pgc position on EXTREME biodiversity as well as dcnr and audubons. Now...DO YOU? Its not just a buzz word you know.

"His comeback prediction: It will contain lots of slander and opinions, and very little solid fact or verifiable ones; plus there will be something about the pgc, their employees, their families, and friends of their families. Civility will be absent. "

Ive given you facts and am about to give you more... but im sorry, i somehow missed your civility and your own discussing of the facts? Must have been hidden behind all the slander and opinions YOU expressed??

[Pa greed commission]

Bryon Shisslers Resume' from his business website. I bolded the important particulars which you denied. Scroll towards the bottom and read, then weep. Then I might accept your apology. ENJOY
-------------------------


Bryon P. Shissler C.W.B.

As a certified wildlife biologist for NRC Inc., Mr. Shissler has been involved in providing a broad range of ecological services including assisting communities, and property owners with the assessment, management planning and administration of overabundant deer problems, environmental assessments, landuse planning, low impact development, environmental impact statements, natural resource inventories, wetland delineations, mitigations and replacement, wildlife and forestry management planning, and expert witness services. He has served as a consultant on deer and forest ecology to Audubon Pennsylvania, Scientific Certification Systems, and the Forest Stewardship Council.. Mr. Shissler is currently under contract with the Pinchot Institute of Conservation to conduct a national evaluation of deer management programs and how they have or have not integrated ecosystem management concepts. He also serves as the director of the Ecosystem Management Project administered by the Community Foundation For the Alleghenies.

Bryon has served as an adjunct professor for Penn State University, published over 85 juried and popular articles on forest ecology, natural history, and natural resources management; and served as Conservation Editor for the Pennsylvania Sportsmen Magazine and as a columnist for Pennsylvania Wildlife. He has development and taught dozens of professional and popular workshops, through Penn State University, Community Colleges, Audubon Pennsylvania and individual communities and clients. Mr. Shissler has, on behalf of many clients, conducted public meetings on controversial issues with the goal of identifying common values, goals and opportunities for resolution.

EDUCATION

West Virginia University, Morgantown, M.S. Wildlife Management, 1981.
Pennsylvania State University, State College, B.S. Biology, 1976.

PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE

Wildlife Biologist - Wildlife Managers: 1981 to 1989
President - Natural Resource Consultants Inc. : 1983 to present

PROFESSIONAL ACTIVITIES AND SPECIAL ACHIEVEMENTS

Certified Wildlife Biologist (1988)
Growth Management Task Force, Lancaster County Planning Commission - 1991
Deer Management Forum- Audubon Pennsylvania 2001 - Present
Deer Management Team, Pennsylvania Game Commission 2000 - 2004
Wildlife Management Institute/Pennsylvania Game Commission�s Deer Management Working
Group, 1997-1999
Governor�s Sportsmen Advisory Council, 1994-1998
Forest Stewardship Council, Certification Working Group, Central Appalachian Region,
1997 - 2000
DCNR Ecosystem Management Advisory Committee, 1996-1997
Conestoga Valley Association Board of Directors - 1983-1990
Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen�s Clubs, Game Committee Chairman - 1986
State Forest Stewardship Committee - 1994
Member - Ecological Society of America
- Natural Areas Association
- Society for Ecological Restoration
- Society for Conservation Biology
- The Wildlife Society
------------------------------------------------

Now friend, hows that dang foot taste? Whos the one with limited knowledge and questionable credibility? Oh I almost forgot. You like links..... here ya go.. Pal. Might wanna note, not only did this audubon/dcnr antideer fool take part via being on the deer management team, he also worked for our "auditor" wmi doing a project to help pgc with public relations and selling the deer program, he also was on the governor advisory council who picks our commissioners...then he speaks out as a "supportive previous critic" of pgc lmao. Perfect example of "Oh what a tangled web we weave"! lol.

http://www.nrcdeer.com/staff.htm

Anyway...Deer team....Now, let us hear it.... Who was RIGHT? And who was WRONG, yet ran their mouth off anyway despite not having a clue??

[Pa greed commission]

Venando You're cheerleading a losing team. lol.

Dont know if you'll ever admit it or not, but you'll figure that out sooner than later.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Hey man, I checked your profile and noticed that

"Pa greed commission has not made any friends yet"

I'm not sure why it's got to be a pissin contest and not a discussion about QDM. If you make a statement, or give an opinion then just call it that. If someone wants a source for what you've said, either tell em you don't have one or give em the damn source. It's not a challenge.

Why just the other day I asked ole Lamelighter where he heard something. Even though I'm always poking him with a sharp stick, he didn't take it as a challenge and just told me where he had seen the information (the link was two posts up). All of it wasn't there (or I didn't see it) but I didn't feel the need to come back and tell him about it.

Take a deep breath, maybe you guys should go have a beer over at Barry's house. He's solving the world's problems one beer at a time.

Alan

[Pa greed commission]

"Hey man, I checked your profile and noticed that

"Pa greed commission has not made any friends yet""

Gee, Ive been here what? about 2 or 3 days now? lmao. I also didnt come here to "make friends" or to "alienate" anyone. I posted to refute pure garbage and nonsense I saw posted.

"I'm not sure why it's got to be a pissin contest and not a discussion about QDM. If you make a statement, or give an opinion then just call it that. If someone wants a source for what you've said, either tell em you don't have one or give em the damn source. It's not a challenge. "

Yeah. And due to your intention to mislead, id say you are no stranger to trying to start "pissin contests". You accuse me of not providing facts when thats all Ive done since getting here. You want links? Apparently you dont know what they are. Thats the little blue underlined thing at the bottom in my post genius.

"Take a deep breath,"

Why? Pointing out lies and b.s. is not work or "maddening" its actually entertaining seeing known story tellers get frustrated and stuttering.

"maybe you guys should go have a beer over at Barry's house. He's solving the world's problems one beer at a time."

Sorry. Dont drink.

BTW, wasnt it funny to see that lil' Rene' replied to my OTHER post over TWO HOURS AGO yet slinked away from this one with tail tucked? lol.

\Well C'mon Rene' wheres my "you were right and I was wrong"? Where is my "I apologize for running off at the mouth and insulting when I had no clue what I was talking about?" lol.

Thats why people used to get booted from his little site. People would point things out, he'd strongly deny or whatever then be proven wrong making himself look stupid an embarrassed. Then hed turn around 5 minutes later and do the exact same thing. THen he'd have the nerve to send already written up messages saying how the other person is a "know it all" and a "usp member" and that they better tow the line or get their Arses banned.... Real classy stuff just for being "shown up" lol. Guess thats why his site has bout 6 members...Oh, Im sorry ....five.. I see ghost got the boot finally after making Rene' look stupid one too many times also? lol

BTW, Allan. This topic IS NOT QDMA, and probably belongs in some other thread. But not my fault I didnt put it here.. What is occurring in Pa is far from it. Where is qdma practices where half the herd is UNNECESSARILY slaughtered and 80-90% of all legal bucks are harvest, and no habitat improvement is attempted other than some plantings on game lands for birds and putting bird houses on every tree? lol.

[Renegade]

Did I call that one or what! Just as I said. Predictable.

Those aren’t insults Dan, that’s just reality. You think your so anonymous on the internet but your style gives you away in an instant. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it IS a duck. And in two different threads you haven’t denied it, but in fact admitted it by mentioning the exact site. I have no problem with hiding my identity. It’s me, Renegade. The same guy who debunked your false claims on pabucks, along with others, to the point you had a childish meltdown and broke the rules.
You better watch, your tangling yourself up in that web. It’s probably tough to keep remembering which alias your typing as. I believe they call it the Sybil effect!

” I throw alot of temper tantrums. lol thats why i use so many "LOL'S" lol.”
Yes, I explained this in the other thread.


"Beau, flatcat, guru, cornelius, PA greed comm, or whatever you want to be called,"

Nice attempt at discrediting since you cant do so via the facts or debate. Pretty pathetic attempt.
Helloooo….. you’ve already admitted to being at least two of them via your bringing up the past on that site!! Please try to follow along.

” Then alot of others arent aware of 2 high ranking pgc officials taking part. One the chairman of the company the other the lead biologist in charge of the audit. One was deputy executive director at pgc and the other was also a pgc official. Doesnt really matter if I were the only one on the planet who thought it skewed, thats my opinion yes OPINION based on the facts. Facts are pretty ugly.”
That holds about as much water as saying “well they were both babies once and babies don’t yet have the ability to talk let alone do an audit.” Your facts are sketchy and only obvious facts without relevance. The truth is both of those gentleman were once director and deputy director and both got fired from the pgc for falsifying dates for their retirement benefits. So your premise, not fact, that they are good ol’ friends of the PGC who will give them a pass, doesn’t bear out. The most likely didn’t leave on good terms since they were both FIRED.
Facts sure can be ugly once you locate them, huh!

That’s pretty weak. Have you never seen a padded resume? Shissler has never been a PGC employee. Show us something other than a one liner that HE wrote. Or how about something from their website or a press release with his name in it indicating he was. He has been used as an outside consultant, yes, but never as an employee on their “deer management team”. So was Duane Deifenbach, so are you going to link Penn State to this conspiracy too?:rolleyes:

Alan - ” I'm not sure why it's got to be a pissin contest and not a discussion about QDM. If you make a statement, or give an opinion then just call it that.”
It’s not in him Alan. He wants to make it all personal. It’s his inferiority complex. Notice how his very first posts were aggressive.
But your right, this should be a discussion forum and not a bashing forum like so many other he’s used to. So let’s get back to the topic at hand. The audit.

Now that the audit has gotten approval and has started, some who formerly praised the outfit doing it (WMI) are now backpedaling and trying to discredit it before the outcome is known. They are alleging another conspiracy has taken place. The initial draft for the parameters that they wanted the audit to cover was sent out to various org’s. including the usp, for input. They edited as seen fit and responded back if they cared. Now a club whom was left out of the fray is upset and claiming a conspiracy because the proposals were similar in wording. Well duhh, they started as the same document. Plus this club has an axe to grind with the legislator who found the money to do the audit and who’s staff wrote the initial draft memo.

[Renegade]

Some of have jobs there skippy. We don't have the luxury of sitting in front of a computer all day, creating multiple users and typing flat out lies. But someday when you grow up you'll understand.

"Guess thats why his site has bout 6 members...Oh, Im sorry ....five.. I see ghost got the boot"
Your math skills are shining through again. There's over 1300 members, 6 new this week, and ghost is still a member. More of your crack reporting skills huh!

[Renegade]

Oh, and to back that up even further:

From: DuBrock, Calvin W
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 2:20 PM
To: Neville, Joseph
Cc: Roe, Carl
Subject: RE: question

No, Bryon was never a PGC employee. During this time period Bryon had some type of (official?) liaison responsibility for DCNR and did interact with our Deer Management Team on a regular basis. I recall several meetings with the deer team during this time period at which Bryon was present; however, he was not a member of the PGC’s Deer Management Team.

Calvin W. DuBrock
Wildlife Management Director
Pennsylvania Game Commission

[Pa greed commission]

"Did I call that one or what! Just as I said. Predictable."

Lmao, yeah, your such a genius attempting that child psychology. lmao.

"Those aren’t insults Dan, that’s just reality."

Problem is, YOUR reality isnt reality at all. And yes, it usually entails insults and mistruths.

"You think your so anonymous on the internet but your style gives you away in an instant. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it IS a duck."

Is that also one of my "aliases". Duh.

"I have no problem with hiding my identity. It’s me, Renegade."

Yet you dont sign on to huntingnet, huntingpa or paoutdoors as "renegade". :eek:

"The same guy who debunked your false claims on pabucks,"

Lmao. Yeah. About as much as you have here. lmao. If this were your lil site, id have been history after the very first time you made yourself look foolish in our conversation. Just as you did in this thread. lol

"Helloooo….. you’ve already admitted to being at least two of them via your bringing up the past on that site!! Please try to follow along."

I never said who i was on that site. I also never said when I was a member.

" The truth is both of those gentleman were once director and deputy director and both got fired from the pgc for falsifying dates for their retirement benefits."

EXACTLY. nice to see you actually bothered to look something up for a change that corroborates exactly what Ive been telling you.

"So your premise, not fact, that they are good ol’ friends of the PGC who will give them a pass, doesn’t bear out. The most likely didn’t leave on good terms since they were both FIRED.
Facts sure can be ugly once you locate them, huh!"

No, not my premise. My premise is that they ar FAR from an "unconnected to Pa" auditor which was supposed to be the case. they supposedly wanted a completely unbiased third party audit to address the problems. no matter how you glaze it over, that cannot be considered the case.

Their firing also has nothing to do with the current crew of ecoextremists at pgc.

"That’s pretty weak. Have you never seen a padded resume? Shissler has never been a PGC employee. Show us something other than a one liner that HE wrote. Or how about something from their website or a press release with his name in it indicating he was. He has been used as an outside consultant, yes, but never as an employee on their “deer management team”. So was Duane Deifenbach, so are you going to link Penn State to this conspiracy too?"

Are you a complete idiot or do you just pretend to be one and muddle the water lmao. The man is/was consultant for dcnr, worked for wmi belonged to several conservation organizations, has this on his resume' on his business website for the entire world to see. And you contend he need it on his resume and lied about it? lmao. Then what makes it even funnier, you turn around and believe his assessment that pa deer management was "the best in the nation"? BRILLIANT. lmao..... Now do you other guys see why i use so many laughing abbreviations when discussing things with rene?

"It’s not in him Alan. He wants to make it all personal. It’s his inferiority complex. Notice how his very first posts were aggressive."

lmao. as opposed to your little napoleon complex? Funny seeing you flounder like a fish out of water where your moderating powers dont support your lack of argument. lmao.


"But your right, this should be a discussion forum and not a bashing forum like so many other he’s used to. "

Oh, yes, and lets come to that conclusion AFTER you've hurled all your insults. lol Typical napol...er I mean Rene'.

"So let’s get back to the topic at hand. The audit."

Fine by me. Lets see how long you can last without reverting to your usual.

"Now that the audit has gotten approval and has started, some who formerly praised the outfit doing it (WMI) are now backpedaling and trying to discredit it before the outcome is known."

The outcome is already know. Wmi already worked on the deer program by helping with the pr. They also have all the connections mentioned. Past pgc employees in high places as well as having worked with pgc on other projects. Their doing of the audit was also initiated and supported by Antideer legislators and very hunter nonfriendly ones at that.

But hey, the usp, as I stated, and whom you villainize agrees with YOU on the audit. Slinsky supports wmi doing the audit. Anyone esle who wished to see an unbiased audit and knows these current "goings ons" doesnt support wmi doing the audit. Its that simple. Those who support it fall into two groups. Those who want a given result to rubber stamp the fraud, and those who legitimately want an unbiased evaluation, but dont look into the ugly details and politics involved.

[Pa greed commission]

Nice self written letter out of the blue. Just so happened to fall in your lap. Can you also now make one up from Dr. Alt? I provided hard cold evidence of an entire resume and a link to that resume on a business website.

And I already told you and its on the resume as well, that he was a consultant for dcnr, as you added in your little letter.

Wether you believe the dubius letter, or the mans resume' this holds true:

Its a fact Shissler was involved in the deer management program and what it entails. "During this time period Bryon had some type of (official?) liaison responsibility for DCNR and did interact with our Deer Management Team on a regular basis. " So he either was ON the deer management team as a employee of pgc or he was ON the deer management team as a liason between pgc and dcnr which would be even worse, since pgc is supposed to be "independant" and dcnr involvement in the program is strongly refuted by pgc supporters/damage control. The man was clearly taking part in a capacity as to he believed he was an integral part of the deer management team.

And its also a fact the gentleman he currently works with Dr. Alt was just as much nuts. lol and there is no denying his involvement. Audubons lil pint sized savior of the 3 toed five lined eastern greenback salamander. lol

Btw, I prolly "work" more hours than you. Just so happens I have plenty of access to pc wether working or not. Thats also no excuse for you to have no addressed this post when you did the other. Only reason is because you had no reply.

[My buddy]

Here's a fact.

This Pa. greed commission guy comes off like such a prick, that even if he is right, nobody would want to admit it.

oh yeah...let me add an LOL!

LOL!

[Pa greed commission]

Sorry intellect intimidates you. Get over it. Everyone can't be a moron too stupid to have a care in the world. lmao.

I also see no reason to cower when insulted. Sorry, you give a limp wristed slap, i hit back. Dont like it? Dont initiate it.

Must admit, your insult was pretty funny. Specially coming from a poster whose biggest contribution to this board so far was the word "prick".. :cool:

[southtexas]

Buddy:

I'm thinkin' I agree with you. If he acts in person like all 16 of his posts, ... don't think he'd be welcome at my campfire too long. Life's too short and campfire time is too precious.

[Pa greed commission]

Yeah, just a pot stirring kid I take it. See an argument so poke the most imposing side with a stick to get a reaction.

I guess "renegade" would be welcome at your camp? In that case Im glad you wouldnt invite me, as i dont believe i care for your "type" anyway.

[chappy]

Well, i'll be danged. If it isnt old renegade getting set straight. Good job pgc. Noone can get a word in edge wise on that jack off at p.a.b. He has been accused of being associated with the greed commission. He said no. But he just happened to get a message that fell from the sky, from the game commission wildlife director to the game commission director of info and education. Dont you know that all of us hunters get ahold of those every day. Renegade you truly are a dipshit. So are the homo cowboy want to bes.

[chappy]

Renegade what are you talking about you unemployed bum! You post 24-7 on boards just see the times on here plus on pa bucks plus the couple other boards where you use other names like ghost over on paoutdoors and other handles on huntnet and pa sportsman. Get a life you game commission ass kissing bum.

[Sabre]

I don't know any of these newbies but so far I'd have to say Renegade is coming off as the biggest dick head. I may have to reconsider my vote for the Huntamerica asshole of the year award.

[chappy]

He has that title on more than one websight. He has been kicked off of several as well. He does not know how to control himself in public forums that he dont control.

He kicked off my 83 year old grandfather because he made 4 posts in a row saying he did not agree with the deer plan for christ sake. A true douchebag.

[southtexas]

The only thing that's clear to me is that everybody in PA seems to be mad at everybody else. Glad I'm not there.

[Renegade]

” Yet you dont sign on to huntingnet, huntingpa or paoutdoors as "renegade".
Well duh, I don’t need to at huntingnet cause I don’t post there, but you can still read the forums. I don’t want to at paoutdoors cause they only have a handful of users and like the usp site, you can’t even read it without registering. But from what some users tell me its where all the misfits who’ve gotten kicked off the other sites have flocked to. Birds of a feather ya know. I’ll bet your multiple personalities have a blast there, always agreeing and praising yourself. You’re a legend in your own mind. And yes I do occasionally post on huntingpa.
You should really try reading more on these sites instead of spouting off, you tend to learn more.

” I never said who i was on that site. I also never said when I was a member.”
Well again, duh. I’m one of only 3 administrators overseeing 5 moderators. I know of every user who gets booted and there’s only been 4 booted for severely breaking the rules. It ain’t hard to figure out there Einstein. Your personality shines through!

” EXACTLY. nice to see you actually bothered to look something up for a change that corroborates exactly what Ive been telling you.”
Nice try at spinning but you never once said anything about them getting fired. Everyone knows they worked there, that's no great discovery. But your trying to make the connection that because they worked there in the past that they will give them a great outcome cause their old buddies.

” No, not my premise. My premise is that they ar FAR from an "unconnected to Pa" auditor which was supposed to be the case. they supposedly wanted a completely unbiased third party audit to address the problems. no matter how you glaze it over, that cannot be considered the case.”
Their current position is harmless. They won’t be doing the ground work and they surely won’t rewrite what their people find. These guys have a reputation to uphold, as they work for many state wildlife agency. Plus it would be a breech of contract, as stated within the contract.
The CONTRACTOR covenants that it presently has no undisclosed public or private interest, direct or indirect, and shall not acquire any such interest directly or indirectly which would conflict in any manner or degree with the performance of its ser-vices or obligations hereunder. The CONTRACTOR further covenants that in the per-formance of this Agreement it shall not knowingly employ any person having such inter-est.
I guess your unaware of how this audit unfolded but first off it’s not like theres a ton of companies out there who do this kind of thing and only three, count them three companies responded with a bid. A single guy from within PA with a price of 3 times that of the other two. The second outfit was out of state but didn’t have the qualifications to do it as they were more of an environmental & grasslands company. WMI was qualified and even praised by your mentour slinsky and his usp.

” The outcome is already know.”
I think you were trying to say “known” but that’s pure speculation on your part and it’s got you scared because it will once again make you look like a fool for following the usp’s line of thinking, hook, line, and sinker. Time will tell. I'm not worried but you and the usp sure seem to be.

” Past pgc employees in high places as well as having worked with pgc on other projects.” Your just going to have to get over that conspiracy. They’ve worked for a lot of states over the years and have done audits of those states as well. To eliminate them would be to not do the audit, which is truly what you’d rather see happen.

” Their doing of the audit was also initiated and supported by Antideer legislators and very hunter nonfriendly ones at that.”
The audit was initiated by Staback, Surra, Hanna, and Levdansky. 3 out of 4 being the most anti PGC legislators we have. One of those being the chair of the game & fish committee, the others members, who you claim is holding up a license increase because of no deer.
Your exact quote in post #109 of “the verdict is in” thread:
” Reason pgc hasnt been getting a fee increase currently is because house fish and game needs to rubber stamp it first. They wont, and will tell you its because of low hunter satisfaction caused by the deer plan and all the petitions etc. theyve recieved.”

That email I posted was straight from the source. See, that’s the difference between us. I don’t cherry pick pieces from third party sources and join them together to suit my agenda. I go straight to the source whenever possible. You’d be surprised how many friends you can make with the major players when you use honey instead of vinegar. It is what it is, believe it or not. Or better yet, I challenge you to ask him yourself. His name is Cal Dubrock, he’s head of the Bureau of Wildlife in the PGC. Anybody, feel free to verify his statement in the email.
What’s funny is your attempt to discredit this authentic email, but then you go and use a section of it that fits your agenda. And you want to ignore the other part of it that says ” however, he was not a member of the PGC’s Deer Management Team.” You’re a piece of work I’ll tell ya!

” Btw, I prolly "work" more hours than you. Just so happens I have plenty of access to pc wether working or not. Thats also no excuse for you to have no addressed this post when you did the other. Only reason is because you had no reply.”
Oh I don’t doubt you spend most of your 24/7 working on a pc as much as you get around to all these sites. Your also a fast typer too which validates your computer time. I’m a 2 finger typer and my life doesn’t revolve around the internet. Have you ever thought about taking up hunting? It’ll get you away from that keyboard.

Now isn’t that cute, you’ve created another user for support. Gee. Didn’t see that coming!! Chappy huh, how original. I see you gave him some internet muscles and are going to have him do your meltdown. I can tell by the stuff oozing out of his mouth. That’s good. Let him do your dirty work so the mods boot him instead of you. The past has taught you well.
And you’ve brought along your usp buddy saber for backup

[Sabre]

And you’ve brought along your usp buddy saber for backup Better guess again Einstein.:rolleyes: Nobody "brought" me anywhere and I have no connections to usp whatsoever.

[Altjaeger]

Renegade, Sabre was here long before you so he was not "brought along".

[Pa greed commission]

"You should really try reading more on these sites instead of spouting off, you tend to learn more."

And that might be the only piece of advice from you that I would suggest you actually follow. Practice what you preach.

"Well again, duh. I’m one of only 3 administrators overseeing 5 moderators. I know of every user who gets booted and there’s only been 4 booted for severely breaking the rules. It ain’t hard to figure out there Einstein. Your personality shines through!"

Here we go again...More intent to discredit. Why dont you stick to the facts, as its been pointed out by another member, YOU are no stranger to message board booting. And thats not even on 6 active member message boards with little dictators screening posts for anti-deer plan content.

"Nice try at spinning but you never once said anything about them getting fired. Everyone knows they worked there, that's no great discovery. But your trying to make the connection that because they worked there in the past that they will give them a great outcome cause their old buddies."

Their "getting fired" only detracts from their credibility! For cryin' out loud, one of them was fired for instructing a subordinate to alter pay roll records and to give himself a raise!! But you contend this good fella who is kin with pgc (not enemies with those whom didnt fire him) and has VERY questionable integrity... But according to YOU, we should trust him? LMAO. Cmon man, what the heck is wrong with this picture???????

"Their current position is harmless. They won’t be doing the ground work and they surely won’t rewrite what their people find."

ONE OF THEM IS THE LEAD BIOLOGIST IN CHARGE OF THE AUDIT!!!! The other, while maybe not being "hands on" the project, is STILL the chairman of the company!!

"These guys have a reputation to uphold,"

LMAO, yeah, and exactly who is gonna take what they rubberstamp and say otherwise AND have the ability and resources to officially PROVE otherwise?...ESPECIALLY when much of it will be nothing more than a judgement call based on their opinion, because the clever wording in the econut audubon dictated wording, which completely avoided many of the important particulars and issues...pretty much guaranteed it..

"I guess your unaware of..."

No...Im not aware of anything according to you. No matter the topic. lmao. Though I think who knows what is more than evident without you needing to point it out erroneously.

"how this audit unfolded but first off it’s not like theres a ton of companies out there who do this kind of thing and only three, count them three companies responded with a bid."

I know exactly how it unfolded and I provided the acsl link in case you needed help with it.

"Oh I don’t doubt you spend most of your 24/7 working on a pc as much as you get around to all these sites."

I have shortcuts to these sites. Im a very fast typer. I post off and on, some days not at all. I spend a grand total of about 1 hour on "these sites" most days. Broken down into anywhere from 30 second to 30 minute intervals....but why am i in need of defending my pc habits to YOU? lol I could spend 24/7 365 days a year on here, like apparently someone said you do, and I wouldnt strongly disagree, but anyway if I did it wouldnt be one bit any of your damn business. LOL

" Your also a fast typer too which validates your computer time. I’m a 2 finger typer and my life doesn’t revolve around the internet. Have you ever thought about taking up hunting? It’ll get you away from that keyboard."

I bowhunt. I dont shoot minimum ar legal buck. I kill buck every year. Sometimes more than one when I hunt WV Maryland or Ohio. I also predator hunt. I post VERY little during hunting season, as I simply dont have the time to. Thats all I care to share. Thats all you need know.

"Now isn’t that cute, you’ve created another user for support."

Oh yeah... Another unbased claim. Nothing new there. Everyone is crooked and liar and cheat except the two biggest who actually fit that description. YOU and the Pennsylvania Game commission.

"Chappy huh, how original. I see you gave him some internet muscles and are going to have him do your meltdown. I can tell by the stuff oozing out of his mouth. That’s good. Let him do your dirty work so the mods boot him instead of you. The past has taught you well."

Great conspiracy theory there. Course you are famous for making off the wall unsupported claims and swearing it is so. Im sorry to break the news, which im sure comes as a big shock, but its painfully obvious your not the most beloved poster on the internet. Pretty dispicable from all things Ive seen and heard. Guess when you get "caught" out of your little sanctuary site, where you are free to lie, distort and insult completely unchallenged, and abuse moderating/administrating power, you are a fish out of water. No wonder you dont post on the other boards under "renegade". I wouldnt want that connection either.

"And you’ve brought along your usp buddy saber for backup "

Havent a clue who the gentleman is, but seems to be quite a bit more educated and rational than you.

[Laturkeyhtr]

Looks like I have been a bit out of touch with this site for a few weeks. I have a bit of catching up and if welcomes are in order I will do so.

However,
This Pa. greed commission guy comes off like such a prick . . . . . . indicates that I have some serious catching up to do. As moderator of this forum, I would rather "My Buddy" choose your words differently. Many of us here enjoy our discussions and the namecalling is less than desirable. We are all adults to the best of my knowledge, but I am beginning to wonder.

I will have to catch up more later as it seems that in my quick scan I also noticed someone else choosing their words poorly.

[venado]

Hello LATH. Thanks for the post, it was getting a bit rank.:mad:

[Renegade]

I seen that, wow. Yet another prediction for the list.

"He has been kicked off of several as well."
I can honestly say that I've never been kicked off of a message board site. I've got a couple 1 week bans on huntingpa. which btw, is currently on it's third owner, the second being a sporting goods store owner and the current owner is a former user whom I've met. He was laid off and decided to buy it so he could run it from home while spending time at home with his 3 young boys. He's all about promoting the outdoors to kids.
They always make that claim because they've been booted from it. It is the largest PA message board around with something like 10,000 users. Just go there and see how fast paced it is. Typically it's a victim they try to discredit because they are truly a minority there and it has more hunters as members then any other site.

[Pa greed commission]

Hpa is the most politically driven website on the internet.

and i AM a member there, though I dont have much reason to post. Not kicked off, though know MANY very good fellas that have been. I on the other hand know better than to post against anything pgc period on the site. Ive seen hundreds if not thousands of members booted due to their beliefs in regards to the failed deer program.

Nice post about the current owner. lol. Hes a real asset to hunters of Pa as you say. His agenda along with a handful of past and present few dozen pgc and dcnr employees along with a healthy smattering of usfs employees and audubon jokers really would like legislators to believe all is well. Fortunately the legislators werent born yesterday. lmao.

[Laturkeyhtr]

Ive seen hundreds if not thousands of members booted due to their beliefs in regards to the failed deer program.

PGC, that is a pretty bold statement!! Simply booted due to their beliefs or how that chose their words in sharing their beliefs? I would suspect the latter but still doubt the number.

[venado]

LATH, that PGC you are referring to, is that DAFC or the Pennsylvania Game Commission?:confused:

[Laturkeyhtr]

I was referring to the poster that operates here as pgc. I shouldn't have used caps, sorry about that.