What's with 230 grains in .45ACP?

[Bwana416]

In almost every test I've read on all kinds of 1911 pistols from stock to full custom it seems that the various 230 grain bullets group very well. Sometimes better than all the rest. Is there a reason for this? I know the cartridge and pistol were designed together, but with polishing the ramp and other mods you'd think a +P 185 grain HP load would group quite well. What gives?:confused:

Any recommendations from the "real world" on a good 230 grain hollowpoint?

-Ray

[Phil T]

A standard bullseye competition load used 185 or 200 grain bullets. The powder charge was low to minimize recoil, though.
I've owned two standard length 1911's, one officer's model, and a commander length. Only the officer's model frustrated my attempts at finding an accurate light bullet handload. My model 1955 S&W revolver will shoot any bullet weight accurately, but some tweeking of powder charges is, of course, needed.

[MOGC]

...Any recommendations from the "real world" on a good 230 grain hollowpoint?

If a handgun bullet is .45 caliber, weighs 230+ grains, is accurate, and runs the gun 100%, it's all good. In the "real world" anything from hardball to the latest hi-tech hollowpoints that fit the definition above work just fine. Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger T, Remington Golden Sabre, Federal HST, are all top picks.

[Just a Hunter]

Bwana

You have posted a good question, and I may be able to shed a little light on this subject.

There are many things that can affect accuracy, and one of them is the rate of twist in your barrels rifling.

The manufactures have long taken into account the most common weight bullets that a given cartridge will use and they choose a rate of rifling which will stabilize the bullet the best and thus give better accuracy.

The heavier the bullet weight the longer the bullet unless your using a bullet with a density greater than that of lead.

What Im getting at is if your shooting a shorter lighter bullet than what is optimal for your barrel then your accuracy will suffer.

There are numerous things that can be done to a pistol to allow You to shoot it more accurately, but if you want the greatest accuracy you need to find the ammo that IT likes to shoot best first.

Real World Info:

In the real world the main purpose of a hollowpoint 45acp is for self defense.
With this in mind it's difficult to express to a jury that you needed to use deadly force on a individual if they were over 20ft from you and not also armed with a firearm.
Re: Did you really have to kill this young man that entered your house when they were so far away from you? Were you really in harms way at that distance and could you not have had the time to lock a door and call the police. Freaking bleeding hearts, but trust me its been brought up in court before.


At 15feet most any 45acp ammo will be accurate enough to keep a clip of ammo insidge of a 9inch circle, and thats what you really need for self defense.

[Badger]

Bwana,

Maybe I missed something; how does 230 grain ammo group in YOUR gun? Did you try to find a good 185 grain JHP load with different powders and charges? I do not put much stock in printed "tests"; rather, I let my gun tell me what it likes at the bench.

I have found very good handload groups with 185, 190 and 200 grain JHPs in my 1911s. As the prior poster said, what do you need; a target load or a man stopper?

My most accurate .45 ACP load is the Lyman #452460 200 grain cast SWC ahead of 5 grains of 700X. If that does not do the trick, I will just shoot until the home invader disappears from my front sight.

Badger

[Bwana416]

Had a chance to chat for a few minutes with Mas Ayoob bout 15 years ago. He was not only a senior training officer in NH but a recognized authority on armed self-defense and often was called in to help save some poor slob who got into a shooting.:)

The DA seems to ALWAYS go for the SAME lines. "He only had a knife", "Why didn't you run?(in a castle law state no less), "Why did you have hollowpoints?", "Why didn't you try to wound instead of killing him?", "Was your silver worth his life?" and so forth.:rolleyes:

They also go after you for handloads. He said you can use any FACTORY loads you like but for defense do NOT use you handloads. All it takes is 5 minutes of histrionics from some "expert" (usually a member of the VPC or Brady Center) to convince a gun-ignorant jury that you're some kind of homicidal maniac because you reload.:mad:

He also related a couple of cases where he had to recreate a shooting scene for the jury to show how a trained in prison knife fighter can close 10 or more feet even while you're shooting at him and see what you had for lunch. Too many jurors have seen too many bad movies and TV shows.:p

-Ray

[Bwana416]

I've seen dozens of evaluations where the heavier bullets consistently grouped better in the .45 than the lighter ones. I always assumed that Browning designed the whole gun/cartridge combo as a package.

Another thing that bugs me is the insistence on 25 yard testing. From my conversations with cops I have concluded that the average defensive shooting occurs at no more than 25 FEET and often a lot less. In that case a bullet that groups 2.5-3 inches at 25 yards would group an inch or less at 20-25 feet right?:confused:

-Ray

[Badger]

Bwana,

The 25 yard testing of handgun and ammo is pretty much the standard. A 2 or 3 inch groups at 25 yards should be an inch or so at 25 feet. I like the 25 yard range for handguns and 100 yards for rifles because it gives me a standsrd for setting my sights and a way to compare various loads.

Badger

[Hi Ball]

I will echo BADGERS words on this 45acp issue! I have been shooting a 45 for many years and I have always got the majority of tight groups from 230 grain bullets. However, that is not to say that I can't shoot a 200 or 185 grain bullet and keep tight groups with my Kimbers ok.

I handload 95% of my 45acp ammo and when I carried a 45acp it was loaded with 200 grain defense loads simply put. My Kimbers will shoot just about everything I put in them. I also believe that at 25 feet you pistol should be able to shoot at least 2 inch groups. This will not WIN you any competitions but is good enough for a carry gun.;) :)

[Bwana416]

Hi Ball,

I was looking at the Custom Covert II with the Crimson Trace grips and what seems like an OK set of night sights. How do you like the Kimbers so far. They're made a few miles from my house.

-Ray

[Hi Ball]

I find nothing wrong with those KIMBER pistols! Now I do read sometimes where someone on the internnet states the "carry models" are not feeding ammo 100% of the time and cause jams. I asked over at the shooting range (Kimber dealer) and they stated only when folks use cheap (poorly sized ammo) and some hollow point bullets.

I can only tell you that I have 3 Kimber pistols. A regular blued gun, stainless carry model and stainless target model (which can shoot 1.3 inch groups at 50 yards using match ammo from a rest) in which several to notch pistol shooters have put one ragged hole in paper at 25yds. I have owned these pistols for several years and only had a couple of minor jams with the one gun. Do in fact to a batch of reloads that were NOT sized properly.

Now after some 5,000 rounds through 3 pistols they are still going strong. I do not carry the Kimber anymore because of forgetting to take off the safety and that is something like forgetting where you laid down your car keys etc.
So at my age, I found it easyier to solve the problem with carrying a GLOCK pistol instead. Yes, I hate the looks of those Glocks but they are very dependable and in a carry gun.....this is what you want 100% of the time OK.

[Bwana416]

All we get here is the combined Target/Premises paper. So you can shoot all the targets you want and, theoretically, any goblin who bust in your door. Of course watch what has happened when the DA and cops get involved with a licensee shooting!!

I am leaning toward the Kimber Custom Covert. With the famous NY City "cardboard walls" I am looking for "lawyer proof" defense loads. Are the original Glaser rounds still there?

-Ray

[MOGC]

Don't trust the "trick bullets" they aren't magic. If you are worried about over penetration in the .45 ACP use the Winchester 185 gr. Silvertip load.

[Hi Ball]

Now to answer your question of "how do I like my Kimbers so far", well I have had them for several years now. The first one was purchased in 2001. I the second one a couple years later and the 3rd one around 2005 or 2006.

The first time my Kimber stainless carry model was shot, it was by a LEO, who put one ragged whole in the target at around 20 ft of so with cheap reloads. It shot 1 inch low but that was ok by me then. The Kimber Stainless target model will shoot groups that will put a smile on your face at 25 yards, if in fact you can shoot a 45 caliber pistol in a 1911 model, many can not ok. I see a lot of young fellows buying the 45's but they can NOT shoot worth a HOOT. This gun shot under 3 inch groups at 50 yards off a rest the first time I fired the gun at that distance. Again using plain jane Winchester 230 hardball ammo, not match ammo.

My Kimbers will shoot just about any ammo I feed them but they tell me the new "Shorter Carry Models" have had some problems with hollow points feeding. Some fellow on another forum, stated that he had been to many gundealers and they were NOT going to handle KIMBER anymore. I told this guy to post the Names and I would spend the dollars to phone them myself and ask why. KIMBER is NOT having any big problems with their pistols. They own the market in the 1911 class pistols period.

All production guns will have a certalin amount of call backs or minor problems and I think someone may have gotten a lemon (in their eyes) and is sounding off agaist Kimber pistols. I do know that Kimbers are not cheap guns to purchase but they are quality in what I have seen lately.

I have said this time and again, YOU will have to spend twice as much money out of pocket, to get a 1911 that shoots better than a KIMBER at 20 feet of 25 yards period. I have nothing against Springfield or Par-Ordinance but KIMBER is a cut above in my eyes.

I no longer carry a 1911 model because of arthistis in my thumb joint, this prohibits me sometimes to be able to sweep the safety off. I carry a GLOCK model 29 and backup is a Smith & Wesson "Airweight 38spl shooting P+ ammo. :) :D

[crawfish]

All these posts and no one stated the obvious. The original mil spec design and issue ammo for the 1911 was and still is 230g ball. The original 1911 submitted by Colt was designed to fire the 230g .45ACP (the cartridge came first) in a long slide pistol.

[MOGC]

All these posts and no one stated the obvious. The original mil spec design and issue ammo for the 1911 was and still is 230g ball. The original 1911 submitted by Colt was designed to fire the 230g .45ACP (the cartridge came first) in a long slide pistol.

It was stated right from the jump. From B416's first post pending the question...


I know the cartridge and pistol were designed together,

[Hi Ball]

Crawfish the military round with 230 grain hardball ammo is 700fps! A far cry from what a 10mm will do with a 180 grain bullet at 1400fps. You check out the ballistics tests done on the 45acp and those others at AR 15 Armory.com and let the light shine in the darkness. :D :D :D

[MOGC]

180 gr. bullets at 1,400 fps? That is a stretch for standard factory 10mm isn't it? It also doesn't make for the best control and recoil recovery. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing. That is where the proven .45 ACP fits in. The old warhorse .45 caliber 230 gr. at 850+ fps is accurate, hits plenty hard, and is easy to control. For self defense against humanoid attackers it is a hard cartridge to beat. If you just gotta have more jiuce there are .45 ACP +P loads that'll give you all you can really put to use on the streets or in the house against thugs.

[Hi Ball]

MO-GC.......Now pardon me but I did let my fingers overrun my intentions and that velocity figure for the 180 grain bullets going out of a 6inch barrel in 10mm is only 1300fps. Cheer's:D :D :D