Categorizing your game harvest?

[Chuck S]

The many TV shows, especially on whitetails, give rise to a question. Where do you begin to call it hunting versus just harvesting deer. Add to that the "deer management" field where breeder bucks are bought and sold as well as semen, fences erected, other herd management techniques, feeding and areas, etc and it raises loads of questions.:confused:

Hunting over feeders,:( in high fenced areas, on recently released deer and other game, of course, are becoming all too common place. What are your thoughts.

A bright ray of hope:) is the TV shows showing DIY hunts on public land as this helps removes the stigma of the rich being able to hunt and the poor go begging somewhat while restoring a modicum of sportsmanship to the hunt.

Along with the above another area of concern is the commercialization of hunting. All too often I'm seeing that Guiding, Outfitting, Big private and corporate ranches, State Law, and slimy politics are bedfellows now and they shouldn't be as this serves to tie up public land as well as private, make hunting more expensive and serves to reduce hunting to harvesting a crop which is usually planted in large by the public.

We worry about PETA and others out to stop the shooting sports but who, or what organization is working toward keeping public land free, license costs reasonable and hunting as a sport for all to enjoy and not the more weathy among us.:cool:

[LampLighter]

To be honest Mr. Jaeger, hunting is on the way out. We just had a short discussion on this but I cannot remember which thread or board it was on. True hunting is not to be highlighted. It is merely the average Joe taking off to the woods to be one with nature. A kill would be nice, but not necessary. It is not meant to call attention to oneself but rather just the opposite. Something as simply as two rural kids getting off the school bus, and meeting up again 30 minutes later down by the creek to get a few squirrels. Hunting is not to be highlighted, published, and there are no such things as pros or celebrities in hunting. Hunting is NOT an ESPN sport. A nice 6 point is a world trophy to some and that is how it should be. Videos, commercialism, and ranching deer are not hunting. Actually, those people who pose as pros really cannot make it one on one with a deer on his own turf in the woods. That is why they seek the "easy" path to stardom. Actually they should be looking for a job, filling out applications and interviewing to get back to realism rather than trying to make it look like they are working. Work is hard. Nobody wants to work. Nc doesn't want to be on those hot roofs, but he has to. I don't want to be in those hot attics, but I have to. Tiffiney should go fill out a job application and go to work. Hunting is just a pastime that rural folks usually do, nothing to be highlighted.

Now there are authors of books that I admire. They don't pose as celebrities, but just write how to tips that they discovered. I admire the tactics of the Eberharts in Bowhunting Pressured Whitetails . Outsmarting big bucks on public lands. When I read that book, all throughout chapter by chapter, I kept saying to myself, " I do that. I do that too. I been doing that." I couldn't believe we had many public land tactics in common, though I haven't put it together as well as them-yet.
Greg Miller is another author. I think he is pretty slick in the woods, but I think he has an attitude too. In person, the first time he tried to make me look stupid, I'd be all over him like white on rice.

So, in conclusion then, I believe that hunting as I know it is on it's way out the door. I don't believe I would ever participate in shooting ranch grown animals, and in regards to ALL of the individuals who try to seek stardom posing as actual deer hunters, well, they are thinking in a whole different world and what it boils down to is, lets say you put tiffiney or her husband up against one of H.A,s best public land hunter, on a public land NWR more than likely tiff or her husband won't know what to do to achieve a buck kill . They are in their own world separate from a true woodsman. That's what I have to say about that.

[purple heart]

Very basically This is how I categorize the taking of deer.

Hunting is when you go to the deer and try to out smart the deer on it's turf.

Harvesting is when you bring the deer to you. Like baiting, grunting , ect.

Farming is when you grow the deer on fenced property and charge people to
kill certain deer depending on rack size, ect.

This is very basic and there are a lot of gaps in there but I think you get my
idea. This is JMHO.:)

[southtexas]

I guess we all have our own definitions of what "hunting" is. And I do appreciate the enthusiasm that some here have.

But hunting, after all, is something we do for enjoyment. So if I enjoy getting up early on a cold December morning, sitting in my box blind, drinking coffee from my thermos, watching the sunrise, the wildlife come alive, and perhpaps taking a deer if the opportunity arises, you will have to humor me. Look down your noses if you like. But I will do it my way and you may do it yours.

[DaveHawk]

I was thinking about this very subject yesterday. I have just gotten cable in the past few weeks and started watching the Outdoor channel. I've gone through all the shows at least once and have noticed that the fare Chase shows and much more to my taste. I can appreciate the conservation and management of deer herds, I did it myself for 28 years on a nice piece of property and would invite many to hunt and kids to get there first buck.
But as for the larger part of the shows the kids spewing off technical jargon that took me years to learn I just don't see it. I am rethinking my views about internet learning, hunting.
All these young hunters and so pompous and carefree in there after kill attitudes, showing a great deal of disrespect for the game and the heritage which we as hunters have come to respect about the sport.
I'm glad I didn't have cable in my home for my boys to watch and learn , I tough them the ethics of hunting and to have respect for there prey.

You have to remember that there is a faction of the hunting community that it's all about the all mighty dollar but with out this group hunting would be lost in this day and age of information.

[dave-t.]

The other side of the coin is that typical hunters hunting for what is legal is why so many private land owners had to go to (or greatly bennefitted from) a QDM type of system. If you're seeing 6-10 does per buck over the course of the season, folks are hitting the bucks too hard. If you like the number of deer you have, but the forage and cover are suffering and getting eaten thin, then you add a healthy food source to your area.

I can appreciate keeping hunting simple, and enjoying the small victories of the day whether they get you game or just make it a better outing. Still, someone putting extra effort into their honey hole may be better for the ecology of the whole area, not just for the deer, or just the turkey, or just the quail, etc.

I still love small game hunting, and have never paid any fees to hunt any game other than tags and license. I don't think hunting is hurt by improving habitat or shooting for quota's that make sense (as in no more than 2 bucks but at least 10 does this season, etc.). I don't have a problem with point restrictions or earn a buck rules where they are needed, or where the herd and hunting will improve with that kind of plan.

I don't think the sport is helped by a lot that commonly goes on either though. Out of sight lease prices, outfitters tieing up thousands of acres of state owned deer for high paying customers, large tract farmers shooting ag damage and not allowing hunting access are a few things that don't sit well with me, when there are so many folks that would love to be in on some of those opportunities for a reasonable fee or a doe only hunting situation. Those that would travel a couple hours to doe hunt are the ones who love the sport, but probably aren't willing to fork out a sum equal to a new rifle to "help out" so to speak.

[Altjaeger]

Very basically This is how I categorize the taking of deer.

Hunting is when you go to the deer and try to out smart the deer on it's turf.

Harvesting is when you bring the deer to you. Like baiting, grunting , ect.

Farming is when you grow the deer on fenced property and charge people to
kill certain deer depending on rack size, ect.

This is very basic and there are a lot of gaps in there but I think you get my
idea. This is JMHO.:)

I think you have said it about as well as any so far except I would say hunting and harvesting are one and the same. What you call harvesting is simply another hunting technique. We don't talk about turkey or waterfowl hunters "harvesting" the birds to delinate it from hunting. Same for moose and elk hunters. We don't distinguish those in an apple orchard or edge of a corn field.

I listen to these who run down feeders, hounds, fenced pastures of 1,000 plus acres, and more mystified. Or maybe just amused for most are familiar with one and only style of hunting, their local area., They generally have no experience to base their opinions on and are moved by ignorance.

When you begin seriously small pen fencing, buying high dollar breeder bucks and can guarantee a particuliar buck you are probably farming. A lot of the other that so many look down their nose at would probably be too tough for them without the help of local knowledge.

[DaveHawk]

Hunting is : Caring on a tradition of my heritage of my forefathers and Indian blood line. Learning to be at one with my environment. Out witting my prey.

These days is about $$$$$$$$$ & boasting rights.

some of the best times I have ever had hunting is with a group of friends or with my son's or just teaching a new hunter some learned skills.

[Chuck S]

As my title says first let me add a bit on Der Hochsitz and hunting as I do not look down my nose at the hunter that enjoys this style of hunting. Der Hochsitz or German for the high seat, ie a box blind on stilts is a great way to spend some time outdoors and for many it's not only the best way as far as the quarry and conditions go but it's also easy on old bones if the climb is made gentle. Given that, in a hierarchy it fits somewhere like this. Fully furnished, permanent box/cabin blinds, the simple but permanent, box blind, the Stilt blind, the camouflaged tree stand with rails, the portable tree stand and lastly perching on a big limb. That's rated from the most effort making or installing the blind to least and consequently also in expense. Especially when considering that for a permanent blind you are either on your own land or long leased land most generally. There are some days that I personally would love to use a really nice blind while on others I welcome the bigger challenge of still hunting/stalking. It's all preference and circumstance hugely moderated by ones personal finances.

On another subject or the Checkerboard above, the land owners found a Federal judge to say it's illegal to cross corners to reach the hundreds of thousands of landlocked BLM land in the western states. The checkerboard pattern was adopted to allow the railroad to have land where they could cut wood for their steam engines. It runs ten miles or so back from any main line tracks that were in existence in the west during this area and remains to this day, largely intact. By crossing the corners on this checkerboard pattern you could access this "so-called, public" land.:) As it stand now the ranchers get to lease it at a tax payer, subsidized rate and yet keep those self same tax payers from getting any use of it. That's just one instance of the Slimy politics mentioned above. The BLM could inact rules that disallowed the rancher's lease options unless he agreed to public access. The BLM in concert with other Fed agencies could enact rules that would allow light aircraft drop hunts on land locked parcels but in all cases these land locked, checkerboard parcels and other land locked parcels in effect belong to the rancher!:mad:

Lastly, I do categorize hunting from easy to difficult, expensive to affordable and in other ways as do many folks. I do not look down my noses at those who choose hound/pack hunting, or tree stands, or high fence ranches, baiting or high fences but do certainly recognize that all too often there are folks who think that hunting from a permanent box or tree blind, over bait, in a high fenced are for recently released, "tame" deer is what hunting is all about and that's sad! Coupling that with the decline the average Americans available recreational income while gear cost rise, etc and it spells big trouble with a capitol T!":(

[crawfish]

Boy! Oh Boy! Oh Boy! Just what we want is another "my way is the only TRUE/BEST/TRADITIONAL/MANLY/SPORTING/ Yada,yada,yada. Ho Hum.

[Twanger]

I actually enjoy just about all type of hunting. I've killed deer over feeders, and yes, I categorize this as "harvesting". There is a need for this, and i can do it, and enjoy doing it, so I do.
I love hunting the big woods with a smoke-pole or bow in-hand. I consider this truly hunting in the purest sense, but only if I've never been to the place before. If it's a place I know well it's only a little harder than harvesting deer over feeders. If I know where the deer will be, and basically when they will be there from past experience... how hard is that? :rolleyes:

[DaveHawk]

crawfish, instead: of the usually ya da yada stuff lets here your take on things. Or do you just yada yada :rolleyes:

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I choose a firearm and go into the woods (brush). I find the animal (or it finds me) by whatever means are at hand. I sit in a blind, on the ground, in a chair or even in the truck. I stand, or walk and even drive around very slowly. I look for them at feed, at water, traveling form place to place and even while they are pursuing the urge to procreate. When the animal and I cross paths I make a decision as to whether or not to kill it. If I decide nay, then we all go away happy. If I decide yea, then the animal dies and I begin the work of the day.

I will never go into the woods or onto the water to live up to someone else's expectations or according to someone else's definition of hunting or fishing. I stay within the boundaries of the law.

It has nothing to do with my pitting my self against the wiles of another creature. It's all "Hunting". Flushing a covey of quail doesn't mean I outwitted the quail. Putting out a bunch of dekes and singing duck love songs until a duck with a brain the size of a marble get fooled is the same as rattling up a buck in the rut. It's all Hunting and it doesn't fit in a box full of file folders categorized into bad, good, and best. Those are the tactics of those who would end our hunting. it is "moralizing" hunting based on methodology.

Hunting is not the method of the hunter. Hunting is the activity of the hunter in pursuing his prey. I have gone hunting many, many times. I have killed far fewer. Harvesting is the gathering of a planted and cultivated crop. No wild animals fit into that category. Likewise, if a person is hunting and killing an animal for reasons other than food, defense, or self preservation (protection of property) then they are probably doing it for the wrong reasons.

Alan

[crawfish]

I have stated my "take" on this subject so many times that is it is just Ho Hum now. So one more time, very condensed and simple. IF IT IS LEGAL IT IS OK, anything else is poaching. AND BTY animals are KILLED not harvested and killing sometimes isn't hunting.

[Smokey]

+1

[DaveHawk]

Boy! Oh Boy! Oh Boy! Just what we want is another "my way is the only TRUE/BEST/TRADITIONAL/MANLY/SPORTING/ Yada,yada,yada. Ho Hum.


WOW I did not read into anyone's post about my way only, you have a problem with talking about different ways of hunting, managing or harvesting of deer. How do you expect others to learn something new. We are all not experts as yourself.

[GF.]

Having written up everything that follows here, I just distilled it down. So if you want to know more about what I think Hunting is about, read the whole thing. If you really don't care what I think, in particular, then try this:

It's Hunting if the point of the exercise lies in the process of taking the animal. You can have the hunt of a lifetime even if you never get more than the hope of a shot.

It's a Harvest if taking the animal is what matters.
__________________________________________________ __________


So, for the long form....

A 'harvest' is what we produce every year as we play our part in the resource management.

'Hunting' is, more loosely, how we accomplish that task. But to tighten up the definition to where it works for me, personally, it means active pursuit of an animal, and that there has been no deliberate manipulation of the environment to alter the animals' natural behavior for the purpose of making them easier to shoot, and no action taken to artificially increase the herd size to an unnatural level.

Which is pretty fuzzy. :D

So to put some meat on those bones: deliberate alteration of the environment would be things such as mineral licks, food plots, feeders, artificial watering holes, and manipulation of the cover in order to 'enhance' the natural funnel effect of the terrain - if not creating a funnel outright where none existed before.

So as an example, a windbreak along the edge of a crop field is there to keep the soil from ending up in the Gulf o' Mexico. They also attract game and are good places to hunt after the crops have been gathered. So these work well for the hunter, but do not exist solely for the purpose of hunting; they're a fringe benefit of a sound farming practice.

And 'active pursuit' means, ideally, setting out on foot in an effort to locate game and then closing to within a sporting shooting distance, whether by direct stalking or planning an intercept; but locating a game trail and setting up a stand which puts you in the proper position to take an animal that uses that trail during shooting hours is fine, too, IMO. In both cases, you have to use your knowledge of the animals' habits and of the local terrain to be in the right place at the right time. Specific emphasis there on you and your.

So there you have my take on 'hunting' vs. a 'harvest'. What Twanger does, over feeders, is just pest control.... :D

He's a big boy. He can take it ;)

So... Things I have no problem with, provided that they don't interfere with the hunts of those around you:

Calls: Non-electronic. Use them poorly (sour notes), incorrectly (wrong call entirely) or just clumsily, and they telegraph a big ol' warning signal to every animal within earshot. They take some knowledge and some skill to use effectively. I don't use them myself, mainly because I figure I'm more likely to hurt my chances than help them :o But an electronic call uses technology in place of an acquired skill.

Scents: Well, the sex attractors and dominance lures have to be used at the right time of year, and to a degree, in the right place(s). After all, here again you are deliberately notifying the deer of a specific presence in the woods. But I would probably draw a line somewhere if the hunter is positioned far enough from the scent that the animals have no reasonable opportunity to wind the hunter as well.

Dogs: Never done it. But if the hunters are on foot, that's pretty damn active and it's certainly pursuit. Add motors, GPS, and radio telemetry, and that style of hunting quickly becomes (IMO) a farce and an insult to the tradition.

Guides: As long as the hunter is as involved in the physical activity of the hunt as is the guide, then I have no trouble with that, either. Think (non-motorized) spot & stalk vs. stands or blinds. It's one thing to get out there, and climb, gasp & sweat while you learn from an expert with a great knowledge of an area - something else entirely to show up and sit where he tells you to. At that rate, anybody in the world could show up to pull that trigger.

Fences are ticklish: My Mother of All Funnels stand location, to be honest, uses a deer fence to very good effect....but I was hunting there before the fence, too. It also depends what I'm after; only spikes and does really have had their patterns shifted - maybe I should say 'concentrated', because the buck trail is in cover so thick that you can really only hunt it from right on top of it. So now- when bowhuntig, at least - instead of 3 or 4 trees, I only have to choose between 2 on any given day. With a scoped rifle, it was always a one-tree set-up anyway.

And another difference here is that the fence is there to keep deer out, not in; these animals can and certainly will find a different trail to use if I screw this one up. Especially any buck that I'd be willing to shoot.

So I don't think there is any black and white here, short of poaching vs. legal or something blatantly unethical such as taking a shot knowing full well that you're going to need a 'finisher'.

But the closer it gets to shooting fish in a barrel - whether that's by bringing the animals to the shooter or shooting them at ranges where they would normally feel no threat - the less it feels like Hunting to me. That even applies to using the same, productive stand year after year, or using a scoped rifle to take shots that I would pass, given only iron sights, or - to a slightly lesser degree, using sights to take a shot I'd have to pass up were I out there with the recurve using no sights at all.

[osage]

I find that age has something to do with it. I am 75 and still enjoy hunting and have made adjustments in my hunting methods to allow for the old body wearing out. There is hunting and there is killing and I think they are two different things. I like to hunt. If you think about it, killing brings an end to your hunt. As for farming deer, there are some good things (not many) to be said about it. If the deer range freely, the big bucks can do some good things to the does and the big ones have genetic quality. So, public land hunters may benefit. It is tough to categorize what makes for good hunting. Western hunters use their feet and their binocs. Eastern hunters use stands. You read about hunters bragging on long shots they have made. Actually, getting close to the animal may be a better test, I shot my biggest pronghorn at 25 yards after a long crawl stalk on the prairie.