Military surplus rifles make fine deer rifles.

[Badger]

Here in PA semi-auto rifles are not legal for deer hunting. That means the Garands, Hakims, Tokarevs, SKSs and FN ABLs got to sit deer season out.

My first military surplus deer rifle was purchased in 1958 when I was a teenager. I had zero smarts about military arms and bought an Italian M1938 7.35mm Rifle for $13.88. It was NOT an economic triumph, even at that price. I was motivated to read all I could about military surplus arms and then bought a British No.4 Mk1 for $14.04. At least Remington was making factory ammo for the .303 British and I had ammo to hunt with.

Over the years I have acquired various military bolt rifles and most are excellent deer rifles as is. Most calibers are loaded by U.S. ammo companies that may be improved upon by handloading. For example, the SAAMI specs for the 8X57MM JS round is only 35,000 psi due to the large number of old .318 bore 8mm rifles around the country.

My favorite hunting arms are the short rifle or carbine types in 6.5X55MM, 7X57MM, 7.5X55MM, 7.62MM, 8MM, .303, .30-06. 7.65MM and 7.7MM. In the 1960s, most military arms were in the $15-$35.00 range and all one needed was a $4.00 box of 20 hunting rounds to go hunt deer. Prices have risen much since the 1960s, but military surplus rifles still are seen frequently afield here in deer season. Who else hunts with a military surplus rifle?

Badger

[Bill Gunn]

I've shot two bucks with a sporterized Mod. 94 that I bought sporterized in 1964 for $65.00.

I got them in Pa. in Duke Center, just a little West of Eldred. Back when the deer hunting in Pa. USE TO BE GOOD :) .

[Badger]

Bill Gunn,

I have always like the Swedish arms for woods hunting here in PA. My favorite is a M38 Short Rifle with 139 grain handloads.

Yes, the "deer reduction" program of the Pennsylvania Game Commission has drastically cut down on deer sightings here in PA. If you wish to help change things, may I suggest you contact the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania at www.unifiedsportsmenpa.org.

Badger

[Altjaeger]

Bill Gunn,

I have always like the Swedish arms for woods hunting here in PA. My favorite is a M38 Short Rifle with 139 grain handloads.

Yes, the "deer reduction" program of the Pennsylvania Game Commission has drastically cut down on deer sightings here in PA. If you wish to help change things, may I suggest you contact the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania at www.unifiedsportsmenpa.org.

Badger


Before you do you might want to go to the QDM forum and read about the USP.:D

[Bill Gunn]

Before you do you might want to go to the QDM forum and read about the USP.:D

That thread is EXACTLY like a bunch of New Yorkers talkin' about how Texans can't shoot a buck unless it's behind a big fence, and they'd be lost in a big woods without 27 sendero's runnin' through it.... No thanks, neither's right.

We use to hunt Pa. (my wife and I) and would never end the year with an unfilled licence, Either with a rifle or a flintlock. It was Very Enjoyable hunting.

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/13525437/36083623.jpg
(Those are 1 1/2 year old deer, do they look stunted?)

Now you go there, and never see a deer all opening day, and maybe not the whole season. They lost our money years ago, and you can argue about it all you want, seeing's believeing.

[Badger]

Altjaeger,

I offered an option to a Pennsylvania hunter who has SEEN bad things happen to the deer hunting here. When did you last see the PA deer herd?


Badger

[Altjaeger]

Altjaeger,

I offered an option to a Pennsylvania hunter who has SEEN bad things happen to the deer hunting here. When did you last see the PA deer herd?


Badger

To answser a question with two:

If you are so right why are you so obviously in the minority of PENNSYLVANIA hunters?

What is your problem with ANYBODY from Pennsylvania or Texas posting what PENNSYLVANIA residents are saying is happening there? There are plenty of members of this board from Pennsylvania taking the same stance in opposition to your view point.

I do not have to live there to read the reports from and about Pennsylvania to form opinions (that is also my answer to your question) Anyone who does is likely at least as well informed on PA hunting as you.. As I said many times your state will ultimately effect this nations hunting. That means we all have a stake.

Now an observation. No one has come in here looking to relocate the discussion of QDM. PGC or USP. You introduced the subject. I recommend we drop it now and let it return to the QDM forum unless you are looking to make the Military Arms forum the discussion place for Pennsylvania hunting.

[BILL K]

Bill Gunn,

I have always like the Swedish arms for woods hunting here in PA. My favorite is a M38 Short Rifle with 139 grain handloads.

Yes, the "deer reduction" program of the Pennsylvania Game Commission has drastically cut down on deer sightings here in PA. If you wish to help change things, may I suggest you contact the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania at www.unifiedsportsmenpa.org.

Badger

Exactly what positive action is that outfit taking to increase the Pa. deer Herd?
Dont bother answering that, it would be a waste of electrons.

Back on topic.
A pre-war Arisaka completely overhauled.
Rechambered and rebarreled to shoot .264 mag, prettied up by turning down the bolt handle and jeweling the bolt, and adding a high quality walnut stock from Herters.
I've also owned enough mausers to arm a fair sized group of German soldiers, and still have a cute lil bambino size Carcano that's even taken a few deer.

[Badger]

Altjaeger,

By all means take your PA deer arguments up to the QDM site.

You did not answer my question, "When did you last see the PA deer herd?" Bill Gunn said in his last post, "Seeing is believing." He is not seeing PA deer and you apparently never did. That qualifies you to argue PA deer ALL you want on the QDM site. Go for it! You are in good company up on that site.



Badger

[Badger]

Bill K,

WOW! You built a .264WM on a Arisaka action? Was that a 6.5mm or 7.7mm action? I am curious, did the final cost come close to a commercial rifle in .264WM? I just built a .264WM on a Mauser action and the rifle shoots very well.

Badger

[Altjaeger]

The USP is trying to restore PA deer numbers. I did not send a post to you; rather, you butted in. So butt out and get back to your spot on the QDM site.

Badger

When you bring USP into this site you brought the whole discussion in with it. I gather now that is what you want. That said I hope you are a whole lot better at answering the questions in your forum than you are there. Because they will all eventually reside here.

That said I will start with a simple one. What is the USP doing to increase PA deer numbers? Building refuges to establish a base stock? Providing sanctuaries? Establishing food plots? We can transport all those other questions over later if you wish to continue.:D

That said I saw a whitetail doe at Valley Forge in August 1966.:D:D:D

However, having seen Pennsylvania deer has as much to do with the subject as the color of a dragster as to what its time will be in the quarter mile. As I said one who read and studies an issue does not need to be on the ground if the questions are answered. You are not interested in knowledge or even what your fellow residents want. You are interested in what Badger wants.

Thank you for hosting the QDM question. Your lack of answers there made it rather quiet. I look forward to them here.

P.S. I have answered you question specifically with a date included. Now I think there is one from this post and two from my previous post waiting for a specific and direct answer from you, :-)

[BILL K]

Bill K,

WOW! You built a .264WM on a Arisaka action? Was that a 6.5mm or 7.7mm action? I am curious, did the final cost come close to a commercial rifle in .264WM? I just built a .264WM on a Mauser action and the rifle shoots very well.

Badger

6.5mm, and no, although my gunsmith was reasonable in the long run I could've bought cheaper than built.
Sadly, I no loner have that gun. I was young and foolish and she wanted to ride in a new car so I sold it and used the money towards a new Camaro.
Now the gun is gone, the camaro is gone, and so is she.

[Altjaeger]

That thread is EXACTLY like a bunch of New Yorkers talkin' about how Texans can't shoot a buck unless it's behind a big fence, and they'd be lost in a big woods without 27 sendero's runnin' through it.... No thanks, neither's right.

Yes, some are forunate enough to hunt in parts of Texas that require Senderos to see, but they are the minority. Fences probably acount for less that 3% of hunting in all Texas. I hunt National Forest where baiting and permanent stands are prhibited so there is little diference other than temps from your part of the nation.

One member of my hunting group is a retired First Sergeant from Pennsylvania who talks about growing up with deer so numerous as to walk out into the woods, gather a big pile of wood and back up to a tree. Then build a warming fire and keep it going until you shot a deer. There were so many deer and so many hunters that the same herd would be pushed back and forth until you could finally get one. I have had others when in the military tell me similar stories. While I believe it may be true in some cases I certainly don't think it applied everywhere.

[Bill Gunn]

While I believe it may be true in some cases I certainly don't think it applied everywhere.

Well guess what......

Your Wrong

I'll tell you what it was like the first time I took my wife to Pa., and this is the honest to God truth.

We got there in time, but we had a mountain to climb that was tall and steep. My wife about died trying to keep up with me, & the 2 guys with us, but we wanted to be at the top while it was still pitch dark. My wife and I got to where I had planned to post her, but I seen another hunter in the area, so we moved on to where I had seen a lot of deer in other years. I never hunted the spot, but I had planned to do my hunting there that day because it looked very good when I was scouting.
We got there, and I set her up by a tree. Now I had no place to go on opening day! I continued down an old trail a while then cut across a blow down area about 200 yards wide to another area of thick woods I had never hunted before. I found a large glacial rock about 20 feet high, and the size of a 3-car garage, and climbed it just as the sun came fully up.
At 9:15, I seen my 23rd deer, and it was a decent 5 point (not everyone in this world has to have a perfect 5.5 year old 10 point), and dropped it with the 6.5X55.
I gut the deer, and dragged it back over past my wife on the way back to the truck. I asked her how she was doing, and she excitedly said "I've seen 11 deer already! And some within 20 feet!" She was really having a fun day Just Seeing so many deer.
I told her I seen more than twice that amount, and to follow my drag marks through the snow, to the rock, and hunt there.
I met my one buddy back at the truck, he got his deer about the same time I did. It was a nice 6 point, and he had also seen about 20 deer before he shot his buck. We sat and had lunch.
Right during lunch, I heard 4 shots coming from the general area where my wife was. She was more than a 1/2 mile away, on the other side of the mountain, and a little down a hollow, so it was hard to tell, but the shots were relatively loud. She had a .270, and most guys then shot 6mm's, and 30-30's, so I thought it might be her.
Around 2:30, my buddy and I got bored, so leaving our guns in the car, we hiked back up the mountain (Oh... to be young again :p) and started just roaming around, working our way toward where my wife was hunting. I would guess we seen about 15 to 25 deer, and we were even quacking at them like a duck, just to run watch them look at us as if to say :confused:
We met up with my cousin in the area where I was first going to put my wife, and we sat down with him for a while. We watched the deer walking on a bench that ran parallel with the top, about 100 yards below us. I would guess for about the hour we were there, we seen another 15 to 20 deer. My cousin seen a lot of deer that day, but it was his time "In the barrel" he got skunked that day!
About 4 or 4:30 or so we started walking to where my wife was hunting, which was about 5 or 600 yards away. We met her about 1/2 way, and when I asked her how she did, her exact words were "Kick my ass, I missed an easy shot :( " and trust me, she was a Very Good shooter. I asked her how many deer walked by the rock... She had seen 69 deer walk by in about 6 hours! (a lot were the same deer passing by as they avoided other hunters at the top of the hill) I asked her where the deer she shot at walked, and why she missed. She said it was down hill from the rock, about 50 yards. There was a 2 foot thick log laying on the rock, and I asked her if she used the log as a rest. She said "yes".
I turned to my buddy and said, "Lets go get her deer". We went back to the rock, and I had her get on top. I had her guide me to where the deer was when she shot. As I walked I seen tons of tracks in the snow, and then she said "There is where I first shot" There was a lot of blood. She got confused when she looked by herself because of all the tracks. It turned out she had hit it 3 of 4 shots. 2 in the lungs, and one back to far in the liver and guts :( Together her and I seen 92 deer off that rock in an area I never even hunted before. It was only her 2nd year hunting, but she was sold for life. In the years we hunted there, she had also seen 3 bears, 2 less than 20 yards away (but out of season) and tons of other deer. She always filled her license, either on opening day of rifle, or the muzzle loader season after Christmas.

I have had friends that would not believe us when we talked of the great hunting in Pa. One guy was speechless after seeing 125 deer in one day near the town of Emporium.
I really liked the laws there too. You could not shoot your gun at ANYTHING while hunting (not trees, cans, targets, or Anything) unless it was a buck deer (different doe season). So if you did hear a shot, you knew it was at something YOU wanted to shoot. You were only allowed ONE deer a year. It didn't matter if you had a doe permit, or a bow, or muzzle loader hunting permit, or anything... ONE DEER !! So you made sure it was one you wanted, and most hunters got one.
To take a young or new hunter out, and have him see 20 to 50 deer was REALLY an incentive to them to hunt again, and by God, they did.
Now, as in NYS, the game commission seems to see deer as a commodity to sell. The "Give us $10.00 each, and shoot all you want" attitude has decimated the herd in NY and Pa.
I honestly have no dog in this fight, I just don't go there any more. The last time I went, 4 of us hunted the EXACT same area (the oil fields in the mountains around Duke Center). 4 hunters, opening day, by noon, EXACTLY ZERO deer. I'm just telling you the truth. If you think your state may be going the way of Pa., pull down your pants, and bend over.

In Pa. most hunters were just regular guys & school boys that took off opening day like it was a religious holiday. In those days it was a perfectly legal excuse to take off opening day from school to hunt with your Dad.... What ever happen to that? They weren't looking for the elusive 30 point buck (but we all hoped), just a fun day with the guys in a ritual that went back in family's for generations and generations. ANY main highway in NY, and Pa. was a SOLID stream of red taillights, miles long, going 45 mph (at best) on opening day morning, heading for the hunting grounds (and with many many millions of acres of state game lands, there were A LOT of hunting grounds). These days the roads are almost empty, and you can drive 60 mph almost all the way. How many would hunt in Texas if you seen NO DEER for 6 days straight.

Like I said, I'm not here to argue, I never do that on line... I'm just telling you the honest truth. There was a group of 17 of us that hunted there, and an Out-of-State license wasn't cheap. Now... Not a single one of us, or our kids go there, it's a waste of time and money.
I hunted a lot in Eldred, Ceries, Smethport, Oswayo, Odin, Gold, and other areas of Pa. The story's the same. Talk to the family's that actually hunt there.

Bill

[Altjaeger]

I guess that shows just how our experiences lead to our prejudices. That is so easy I almost have a hard time calling it hunting. Certainly far easier than anything I have ever experienced in Texas, four other regions or Europe and more certainly than the methods used in Texas.

The area I grew up the sighting of a deer of any kind was enough to be declared a successful season and 2-3 sighting of deer including does which were illegal was an outstanding season.

The public land I hunt has never run more than 50% success rate and our camp 50%. Under antler restrictions our camp in down to 20 % and I have not heard for the National Forest as a whole. But we still hunt because we are hunters.

It does seem to indicate that all the reports that began surfacing in the 1980s of overpopulation were likely true. It also makes it understandable why communities, foresters, grouse hunters and many other legitimate users would want a more balanced environment and herd.

[Badger]

Altjaeger,

Please take your PA deer stuff to the QDM site. I refuse to comment further with you on this site; here we are talking military surplus firearms.

Badger

[Altjaeger]

Altjaeger,

Please take your PA deer stuff to the QDM site. I refuse to comment further with you on this site; here we are talking military surplus firearms.

Badger

You introduced the subject with a reference to the USP and I simply referred to another forum so that both sides be heard. I even recommended we drop it there but you persisted. Therefore I guess we will ride it to its end and then maybe you can keep any such references to PMs and out of this forum.

As a recent graduate of the seminary surely you are familiar with the passage of reaping what you sow. Be of good health and cheer Badger.:)

I do think I will carry my sporterized M98 in 8x57 on at least one hunt again this year.

[Badger]

Bill K.,

I have a 6.5mm Arisaka barreled action and wonder if a gunsmiuth could just rechamber the original 6.5 barrel to 264WM. I wondered if the 6.5 action was long enough for the .264. Apparently it was ok as your case shows.

Are you buildfing anything now on a military action? I have a Mauser M1924 action that will probably be a 7x57MM before long.

Badger

[Badger]

Bill Gunn,

Thanks for the trip down memory lane. I have hunted in Emporium, Gold and here in Tioga County. I agree with your observations 110%. You got it right from the get go. Do you still have that 6.5x55MM? I like the 6.5 and .303 for the deep woods. For opening day this year I will use the .30/40 Krag rifle or the M1884 .45/70 Trapdoor rifle.

Badger

[Altjaeger]

Bill Gunn,

Thanks for the trip down memory lane. I have hunted in Emporium, Gold and here in Tioga County. I agree with your observations 110%. You got it right from the get go. Badger

ROFL, just can't help yourself even after saying you discussed guns and not Pennsylvania hunting here. Then you wonder?
:D:D:D

[Bill Gunn]

Bill Gunn,
Do you still have that 6.5x55MM?
Badger

Yes, it was the first rifle I bought back in '64 or '65 for $65.00 (they were very common at that price then). It was already sporterized as you see it, and it has all matching #'s, and the barrel had very good rifling.

I got 3 deer with it, 2 bucks and a big doe. The furthest any went was 20 feet. The other 2 dropped in their tracks :) It also has accounted for about 50 woodchucks, as it was my one and only rifle in my younger years.
I shoot a light load of 4064 behind a 120 grain Sierra. It now sits out in the barn to dispatch woodchucks eating the garden when I'm out there.

It always was an easy shooting, accurate (if not loud with the short barrel) and easy carrying gun in the Pa. woods.

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/13525437/369860878.jpg

[Altjaeger]

That is a nice looking set up Bill.

[Sabre]

Bill Gunn, Thank's for the trip down memory lane from me too. I had almost forgotten how many deer we had in the southern tier of NY back when I started deer hunting in Delaware and Chenango counties . I remember the days when seeing 200 deer in one field during spring thaw and seeing 30-50 deer on opening day of gun season was common. When they started dishing out doe tags like Holloween candy in the 70's and 80's it was the end of those great times for sure. Now the woods are comparatively empty of both deer and hunters and it will never be the same again.

[Bill Gunn]

Altjaeger,
Thanks, I could never part with that one. It also has a Williams peep sight that slides in when the scope is removed.
Back then the Swedish 94's were a dime a dozen (everyone wanted a 30-06), but now their asking $500.00 to $900.00 in original condition.
They sure make a neat small package with way more than enough punch needed for our whitetails.

Sabre,
We had 3 places near me (Western Wyoming County) where the deer would herd up during the colder winters. Seeing 250 deer munching over a couple of cut corn fields was quite an impressive site year after year.
Now you might see 6 or 10.
Hunting back then was fun, and you needed 4 or 5 guys for ONE doe permit.
Now each guy can buy 2 permits, and have as many as he wants signed over to him from other hunters.

[Altjaeger]

Bill, I have no doubt thats a fine and versital rifle I would enjoy it greatly.

On the deer I guess for me the question is not nearly as much how many deer, but how many deer per sq mi and what condition the habitat and other species are in. I am not ready to join in some mantra that income is the end game.

There are plenty of studies to show that a lot of signs develop before the physical evidence shows on the deer. Are grouse and other small game numbers up from when the deer were high? Is the right kind of plant regenerating? Not all that is green is good. Is agriculture and forestry production needs balanced with the value of the herd and year around residents accepting of the current population?

Very few in this forum can really address these issues. It appears that Pennsylvania is attempting to. As far as USP trying to grow the herd it appears quite the opposite. They are far busier running a smear campaign that is in the end costing their creditability. The have wasted hunter dollars from the PGC by indulging in frivolous law suits. The PGC has had to make deep cuts due to blockage if license increases to allow as much work done as they fail to compensate fo inflation. After years of nation wide attempts to get game management out of the hands of legislatures and into the hands of professionals they had some early successes in reversing that trend in Pennsylvania. For all the damage they do in Pennsylvania I fear the may do far more on the national scene by making hunters appear willing to upset the balance of plant and animal species to simply breed new targets.

I can understand that when you are spoiled to an overpopulated herd that a smaller balanced herd can be disappointing n terms of numbers and difficulty of hunting. But that does not necessarily consider the needs and desires of other species or people. On the other hand from what you all are describing I would gladly hunt what is there today as being as good as if not better than what I have.

[Renegade]

Boy the places you usp guys try to hide these post bustin' on Pa....

"When did you last see the PA deer herd?"
Well that depends on your definition of what constitutes a "herd". The last large group of deer I've seen was 15 deer (all doe I might add) back in 1988. The herd started decreasing in the 90's, which was bound to happen, just as it had in other places with too many deer for too long.

Bill Gunn - Doesn't, or didn't that strike you as being a bit odd seeing 125 deer in one day? You illustrate well the problem that got us to the point we are today. First let me add that I'm from PA and have hunted here since 1975, just so I don't get the same hesitation that some give Altjaeger and Venado for being from Texas. Whom I might add that they both have an amazing grasp on the happenings here in PA. Much better than even some who live here but just don't care enough to pay attention.

Anyways, seeing that many deer on an outing is NOT normal, nor is it healthy for their food supply that they share with other wildlife. What else isn't normal is the skewed sex ratio that you yourself admitted to having seen. I would venture to guess that back in those days the F to M sex ratio was as bad as 5 to 1. Most professional managers would like it to be somewhere between 1.5 to 2.0 : 1. In 1999 I believe, the claim was made we were around 2.24:1

To sum up your story, if I may; you basically went out and sat in a random place you were never to before, 2 1/2 hours later you seen the first buck after seeing 22 doe and fawns and shot it, your buddy's day had been about the same, and your wife had seen 11 doe and fawns by that time. Walking around a bit later, not hunting, you casually seen 15-20 deer. And then your wife had seen another 69 deer in 6 hours!
And now you want to base your sightings using that as a baseline??? That was an incredible day and one to spoil anyone. However there wasn't much hunting involved and there never is with densities like that. It's like shooting fish in a bucket. And it was far from being representative of the hunting in Pa. statewide. That reminds me of a photo they have hanging at the Cross Fork's Inn (Potter Co.) of Slim Croyal hand feeding well over 100 of the local free ranging deer in the 1960's. He did it for years.
And now look at that area of the state. Poor habitat and only slowly recovering, and also the center of all the complaining that goes on. Our forefathers that hunted that area and the sitting commissioners who caved into them have left the current generation to suffer the consequences of their spoils. It's not like they weren't warned about what would happen either.

As far as the usp goes, I think Altjaeger summed them up pretty well. They are just a thorn in the sportsman's side and have done more to help the anti hunting crowd divide us than they have anything positive to help us.

Oh, and doe tags are not transferable between hunters. There is legislation proposed to be able to do it with mentored hunters, but not yet.

[Bill Gunn]

Renegade

Like I said, I don't argue on the internet, I just told a story of how we use to enjoy hunting in Pa. And although I've hunted NY since 1960, and Pa. since 1975 also, we don't go to Pa. anymore.


As far as...


"Oh, and doe tags are not transferable between hunters. There is legislation proposed to be able to do it with mentored hunters, but not yet.

Read that post again, Sabre and I were talking about NY, where that is legal.

If you are happy with the hunting in Pa. now, I'm very honestly happy for you, and I mean that.

Bill

[Renegade]

Sorry bill, I wasn't trying to argue. Just commenting on your earlier post that's all. It was a great example. But I am used to debating topics so I'm sure it seemed like it.
Yes I am happy with hunting in PA right now. It could be better, yes, but it could be much worse. I'm willing to endure some short term pain for some long term gain. I am a father and grandfather, so the future is where my concern is. My son has been hunting during this new management plan and shows no sign of wanting to throw in the towel. We still see deer on most outings and the buck sign has increased dramatically. Hunting's tougher but not impossible by any means.

My mistake on the transfer of tags issue. I had seen "Wyoming county" and assumed it was the one in PA.