Eagle Scout Lost on Mountain Fined $25,000 for Rescue

[ncboman]

:eek:

CONCORD, N.H. — A Massachusetts teenager who spent three nights alone on Mount Washington in April after he sprained an ankle and veered off marked trails has been fined more than $25,000 for the cost of his rescue. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533641,00.html?loomia_ow=t0:s0:a16:g2:r5:c0 .129626:b26515424:z0)

:cool:

[DancesWithKnives]

Without commenting on this specific NH situation, I have mixed feelings about the general subject. On the one hand, I certainly believe in personal responsibility and asking people to pay for their negligence. On the other hand, we have many hundreds of thousands of people (millions?) here in CA availing themselves of public services for which they make little or no contribution. So I'm not sure I like the idea of charging outdoor people for rescue unless we also start assessing urbanites for the public services that they consume.

DWK

[Altjaeger]

So I'm not sure I like the idea of charging outdoor people for rescue unless we also start assessing urbanites for the public services that they consume.

DWK

I cannot speak for other places but here cities have billed for ambulance services for years. The emergencies were dealt with, then the bill sent. I am not sure the rate of successful collection.

[Sabre]

I don't like the idea of sticking a teenager with a 25,000 dollar bill one little bit.

[Rock Chuck]

The way I read it, he was billed because of gross negligence. It's my understanding that if he'd used common sense, this wouldn't happen.

[Sabre]

The way I read it, he was billed because of gross negligence. It's my understanding that if he'd used common sense, this wouldn't happen.
I read it too and I'd still raise holy hell if he was my kid. Teenagers will show poor judgement/negligence. Any that don't aren't normal.

[ncboman]

I think he should stick em.

I don't see where the gov had any responsibility to rescue in this case.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

That'll teach him to be self sufficient! We can't have people going off and proving they can live in survival situations. We'll go out and "rescue" them whether they want/need it or not!

Although, they probably just turned that boy and his parents into Republicans!

Alan

[Twanger]

Years ago we rescued a climber with a broken leg off an icy slope on Mt. Washington. A chopper was not needed. Nor was $25K.

I think this is plain stupid. Adventurers will get into trouble from time to time. Some need rescuing. Some don't, or the rescue can be effected by others in the area without resorting to exotic means. Was a helo really required, or did the rescuers just want to go for a joy ride? Was the crew in-effect 'training' on a pretty easy mission and trying to stick this poor sap with the bill?

I'm all for self-rescue, and never for one minute every expected anyone to rescue me in the mountains when I used to climb. It was the risk I took. I suspect most adventurers feel the same way.

[Rock Chuck]

Mt Hood in OR is famous for being dangerous to climbers. Sometimes I think that they have a competition to see who can put the rescuers in the most danger. There are quite a few bodies scattered around at random up there, some have been missing for years. A year or so ago, they brought down a badly injured climber who they found in a snow cave. They never did find his 2 partners to went for help and disappeared.
But, there is no charge for rescue. It's all volunteer stuff, even when the climbers are too stupid to carry a homing device to help them find the carrion.

[BH206L3]

Look he is an Eagle Scout, so some nut job in power wants to stick it to the young man. People get lost, they fall down and they do stupid things. Ok if you are going to bill this kid for the rescue, then you have to do it for everybody, and they don't send a bill to everybody that gets lost in the woods.

[swamp]

Look he is an Eagle Scout, so some nut job in power wants to stick it to the young man. People get lost, they fall down and they do stupid things. Ok if you are going to bill this kid for the rescue, then you have to do it for everybody, and they don't send a bill to everybody that gets lost in the woods.

The eagle scout turned his ankle and keeps heading up the mtn instead of turning back... had the rescuers not got involved i'm guessing he would have died. My question is why he didn't turn around and head back after turning his ankle... Not a very prudent action on his part... he is lucky to be alive.

I don't think the state has a legal obligation to make rescues... but since this individual intentionally put himself in this situation I think he has a legal oblgation to pay.

[ncboman]

I assume he had the option of refusing rescue?

I know you can refuse EMS after an auto accident, etc.

[swamp]

I haven't read NH statutes...

Question: had it been you or had you been the parent and had the option of refusing a rescue effort then what would you do?

[ncboman]

:rolleyes:

Personally, it would depend.

If I didn't need rescue, and hadn't called them, I'd refuse.

I'm known to return to my truck late after hunting. Because I'm comfortable in the field after dark I often hunt deep and take my time coming out. What's the hurry, right?

Once, a well meaning guy from camp drove around and found my truck and began yelling himself hoarse from there, trying to 'find' me. I didn't answer, just walked on out wonderin what was going on. :confused:

He got all mad because I didn't answer him ... but I straightened him out about the ncboman. Leave me alone when I'm in the woods. :cool:

[swamp]

Geeze... coming out of the woods a little after dark doesnt require a rescue effort and the use of helicopters to find you... getting lost on Mtn Washington is a life of death situation... in most cases hypothermia is the killer... People have died up there every month of the year... they don't respect the mtn and thats what gets them into trouble... I doubt anyone of SANE mind would refuse being rescued from a life or death situation.


:rolleyes:

Personally, it would depend.

If I didn't need rescue, and hadn't called them, I'd refuse.

I'm known to return to my truck late after hunting. Because I'm comfortable in the field after dark I often hunt deep and take my time coming out. What's the hurry, right?

Once, a well meaning guy from camp drove around and found my truck and began yelling himself hoarse from there, trying to 'find' me. I didn't answer, just walked on out wonderin what was going on. :confused:

He got all mad because I didn't answer him ... but I straightened him out about the ncboman. Leave me alone when I'm in the woods. :cool:

[ncboman]

Geeze... coming out of the woods a little after dark doesnt require a rescue effort and the use of helicopters to find you... getting lost on Mtn Washington is a life of death situation... in most cases hypothermia is the killer... People have died up there every month of the year... they don't respect the mtn and thats what gets them into trouble... I doubt anyone of SANE mind would refuse being rescued from a life or death situation.

Can't disagree with any of that.

I can almost guarantee you'll not see ncboman wandering around Mt Washington lost, day or night. :D

[Sabre]

So we can spend 800 billion taxpayer dollars bailing out the banking and auto industries, {most of which seems to have gone/be going for "bonuses" to obviously incompetent and undeserving "executives"}, send taxpayer dollars all over the world to feed the starving, house the homeless and rebuild those ravaged by war or natural disaster, but we can't rescue a 17 year old U.S citizen without charging him for it ?:eek: Somethin' 'bout that just don't sit quite right with me ! !:mad:

[swamp]

last time i knew the State of NH has yet to bail anyone out... The 17 yr old wasnt 7 and he was an eagle scout and deliberately kept going up the mtn after he twisted his ankle that is just sh-t dumb

http://www.mountwashington.org/about/visitor/surviving.php

[Sabre]

last time i knew the State of NH has yet to bail anyone out... The 17 yr old wasnt 7 and he was an eagle scout and deliberately kept going up the mtn after he twisted his ankle that is just sh-t dumb

http://www.mountwashington.org/about/visitor/surviving.php

Oh, I didn't realize the citizens of NH were exempt from federal taxes.:rolleyes: For the other 49 states whose citizens do pay federal taxes, do ya suppose if we quit spending BILLIONS to bail out folks who don't deserve it and/or "foreigners" who've gotten themselves in a bind we might have the money to rescue a lost kid/U.S. citizen without charging him for it ?

[swamp]

Oh, I didn't realize the citizens of NH were exempt from federal taxes.:rolleyes: For the other 49 states whose citizens do pay federal taxes, do ya suppose if we quit spending BILLIONS to bail out folks who don't deserve it and/or "foreigners" who've gotten themselves in a bind we might have the money to rescue a lost kid/U.S. citizen without charging him for it ?

Honestly the guy deliberately stepped out in front of a freight train (figuratively speaking) and you think the state of NH should eat the tab... damn!

[Sabre]

Honestly the guy deliberately stepped out in front of a freight train (figuratively speaking) and you think the state of NH should eat the tab... damn!

As I said before, 17 year olds are prone to do stupid shit. That's why they aren't allowed to vote, drink or buy cigarettes.

[swamp]

As I said before, 17 year olds are prone to do stupid shit. That's why they aren't allowed to vote, drink or buy cigarettes.

and the eagle scout (he wasnt mentally challenged) did indeed do a stupid shit thing and still i don't think the state owes him a handout. He is damn lucky he is able to contest the 25K bill otherwise he would be pushing daisys.

[Sabre]

and the eagle scout (he wasnt mentally challenged) did indeed do a stupid shit thing and still i don't think the state owes him a handout. He is damn lucky he is able to contest the 25K bill otherwise he would be pushing daisys.

To my way of thinking, either a 17 year old is mature enough to be considered an adult and therefore can vote, buy/consume alcohol, buy cigarettes and enter into legally binding contracts. OR, he's still a minor and too young to be trusted with adult responsibilities/decisions. To deprive him of the freedoms of adulthood on the one hand, yet expect him to "pay up" when he makes an irresponsible, childish decision is the absolute epitomy of hypocricy.

[swamp]

To my way of thinking, either a 17 year old is mature enough to be considered an adult and therefore can vote, buy/consume alcohol, buy cigarettes and enter into legally binding contracts. OR, he's still a minor and too young to be trusted with adult responsibilities/decisions. To deprive him of the freedoms of adulthood on the one hand, yet expect him to "pay up" when he makes an irresponsible, childish decision is the absolute epitomy of hypocricy.

His parents are responsible for the bill i assume... no one said he couldnt hike mt washington.. he screwed the pooch now he (or his parents) have to pay... if a 17 yr old knocks a chick up then i guess the state is responsible for that screw up too.. Your sort of liberal thinking is why we have rampant welfare...

sorry i'm not buying your logic that minors arent responsible for their actions... NO way

[Sabre]

His parents are responsible for the bill i assume... no one said he couldnt hike mt washington.. he screwed the pooch now he (or his parents) have to pay... if a 17 yr old knocks a chick up then i guess the state is responsible for that screw up too.. Your sort of liberal thinking is why we have rampant welfare...

sorry i'm not buying your logic that minors arent responsible for their actions... NO way

He made a poor decision, just as you might expect a 17 year old to do under stressful circumstance. So you think it's A-OK for the taxpayer to "bail out" a bunch of greedy corporate executives {who are adults btw} when they make poor business decisions but we aught not do the same for a kid who makes a poor decision under extreme stress ?

[swamp]

He made a poor decision, just as you might expect a 17 year old to do under stressful circumstance. So you think it's A-OK for the taxpayer to "bail out" a bunch of greedy corporate executives {who are adults btw} when they make poor business decisions but we aught not do the same for a kid who makes a poor decision under extreme stress ?


Where did you read that I said it was A-OK for the taxpayers to bail out anyone????

Where did you read that the eagle scout was under extreme stress to keep going up the mtn after turning his ankle?

[Sabre]

[QUOTE=swamp;15223]Where did you read that I said it was A-OK for the taxpayers to bail out anyone????

So do we charge the 50 year old heart attack victim for the EMT/ambulance service because he made poor diet decisions and was 40 pounds overweight ?

[Sabre]

Where did you read that the eagle scout was under extreme stress to keep going up the mtn after turning his ankle?

In a previous post you said he was lost. If he was lost I'm sure he was under extreme stress.

[swamp]

[QUOTE=swamp;15223]Where did you read that I said it was A-OK for the taxpayers to bail out anyone????

So do we charge the 50 year old heart attack victim for the EMT/ambulance service because he made poor diet decisions and was 40 pounds overweight ?

and what was my response to the question.. its the same as this one...

we are responsible for our actions and our decisions... and the consequences there of.

Thank you...

[Sabre]

[QUOTE=Sabre;15224]

and what was my response to the question.. its the same as this one...

we are responsible for our actions and our decisions... and the consequences there of.

Thank you...

Do they charge for ambulance services or are ambulance services already paid for with tax dollars ? I really don't know. Never called an ambulance or had one called for me in my life. Wouldn't do much good around here anyway as you'd be dead from anything serious before one got here. If they are paid for with tax dollars then the 50 year old overweight heart attack victim should not be charged as he already paid so long as he was indeed a taxpayer. Who paid for the damn chopper that rescued the kid ? The friggin' rescue crew or the taxpayer {ie the kids parents}.

[swamp]

In a previous post you said he was lost. If he was lost I'm sure he was under extreme stress.

Saber you must be having a really hard night... I didnt say the guy was lost prior to turning his ankle... where are you getting this stuff... you sound more like a liberal with every post... LMAO

[Sabre]

getting lost on Mtn Washington is a life of death situation... in most cases hypothermia is the killer... People have died up there every month of the year... they don't respect the mtn and thats what gets them into trouble... I doubt anyone of SANE mind would refuse being rescued from a life or death situation.

Umm, right there is where I'm getting this stuff. But I guess you didn't say that ?:rolleyes:

[Sabre]

Saber you must be having a really hard night... I didnt say the guy was lost prior to turning his ankle... where are you getting this stuff... you sound more like a liberal with every post... LMAO

How TF am I a liberal because I expect public services paid for with tax dollars to be available to the taxpaying public without personal charge ? Like I asked before, who paid for the chopper that rescued the kid, the chopper crew or the taxpayers ? If the chopper/rescue service is a private enterprise they have every right to charge for their servivces. If the chopper/crew was paid for with tax dollars it's a public service and they have no right to charge. Do you personally pay to plow snow off the roads you use to go to work in the morning ? Why the hell not ? Oh, because your tax dollars paid for the damn plow and the guys salary who drives it and it therefore is a public service.

[M99ER]

In most cases, or at least over here,

Ambulances and related emergency services are paid for by private health insurance for the individual involved. If the patient/victim is on welfare or disabled etc, it is paid for by medicare, medicaid etc. In each of the above (except welfare) the recipient is sometimes required to pay for 20% of that bill. In the case of an uninsured person, they would face the entire debt load.

On the other hand,

Search and rescue are paid for by Sporting license sales (and possibly some registrations such as for boats, snowmobiles etc). So if a tree hugging anti-fish killing (pink tutu wearing) hiker gets lost/hurt when afield and needs a helicopter, it is the very people he is against who HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO `come to the rescue` with their services paid for from their love of the sport the hiker is against. Extreme irony in use here IMO.

The only thing I don`t agree with in posts above is that it is not the responsibility of the 17yo, he is still a minor, so it is the responsibility of the minor`s parents for his actions.

[Sabre]

Search and rescue are paid for by Sporting license sales (and possibly some registrations such as for boats, snowmobiles etc)

Taxes by another name. And thanks for answering my questions M99ER.

[GF.]

I'm OK with billing people for reckless behavior and unnecessary 'rescues'. Now that there are these emergency locator beacons, people are heading out into “they have no idea what they’re in for” situations and hitting the panic button when they run out of instant latte mix. :rolleyes:

But didja notice? The rescue cost more than usual because of some issue that had nothing to do with this kid, and that’s a big piece of why they were billing the family.

:confused:

Is the state responsible for the rescue or not? If so, the added cost of using Maine’s equipment should not factor into the equation; it’s unfortunate that they had to spend more, but not the kid’s fault.

I used to TA in an Outdoor Ed class (at the very beginning of the program from which Aaron Rahlves would emerge some years on down the road). And even way back then I used to joke even then that the first law of mountain Rescue is “Save one, lose two”. You have to take not just your own well-being, but also the safety of your potential rescuers into account when you go off into terrain from which you might need to be extracted in a hurry. And you have to do that before you set out, as well as every time you take on another level of risk....

And JMO, he should never have gotten off trail when injured, because being hurt is a pretty good indication that people are going to have to come looking for you - and it’s always polite to make it as easy as possible for them to find you ‘today’, so that they don’t have to go looking for your sorry carcass tomorrow. :rolleyes:

But I’m not going to damn him for taking a short-cut, because I’ve taken a few myself that didn’t work out quite as planned :o

I have a sneaking suspicion that the latte drinkers have created an environment where rescue agencies are getting a little fatigued and a little drained – both emotionally and financially – and have had it with people who should damn well have been responsible for themselves. Face it – for most of us, getting rescued would be at least a little embarrassing even when sorely & genuinely needed, but there’s a new breed of pseudo-adventurer out there who will pretty well ignore basic planning because they have a little device that will call the cavalry for them. Those people do need to be held accountable for the costs they rack up, but IMHO, this kid’s behavior doesn’t meet the recklessness standard, or even that of gross negligence….Not based on that article, anyway…

[swamp]

http://www.enterprisenews.com/sports/outdoors/x876591090/New-Hampshire-bills-Eagle-Scout-from-Halifax-25-000-for-rescue-effort

the scout made some rather careless decisions... what would have been the cost had he not been rescued? Don't play if you don't want to pay...

[Hi Ball]

Whoooooa Hoss!!!.........Now what is rescue all about anyway? The frigging Tax Payers foot the bill for the equiptment, vehicles etc. I just don't see hammering a kid for $25,000 dollars when our Federal Govn't Pisses money away to BANK Bailouts (some for the 3rd time) and Auto Industry, with CEO'S taking a good chunk of change for themselves.

This is a down right shame in my eyes!:( :eek:

[swamp]

Whoooooa Hoss!!!.........Now what is rescue all about anyway? The frigging Tax Payers foot the bill for the equiptment, vehicles etc. I just don't see hammering a kid for $25,000 dollars when our Federal Govn't Pisses money away to BANK Bailouts (some for the 3rd time) and Auto Industry, with CEO'S taking a good chunk of change for themselves.

This is a down right shame in my eyes!:( :eek:

The state of NH doesnt owe it to you to save your butt when you do something stupid... Fortunately they still save people on occassion from themselves... and yes they have passed laws saying they can charge people for rescue efforts.. so if you dont like the laws in NH then do your hiking adventures elsewhere...

[T2133]

It does not surprise me a bit. The 5 dems in our state assembly judiciary committee killed a resolution to honor the Boy Scouts of America on this their Centennial Anniversary. The Boy Scouts are in trouble in this country, it's time to take a stand for them at every opportunity. Here they were upset because the organization members believe in God do not allow homosexuals into the leadership.